graven images

[WALL]

EXODUS 20 [4] THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANY THING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Is this commandment a 2 parter. Theres 2 thou shalt nots.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

EXODUS 20 [4] THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANY THING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Is this commandment a 2 parter. Theres 2 thou shalt nots.

Two separate commands. The first one says that it is a sin to make dolls, photographs, statutes, paintings, drawings in the sand or any other thing which resembles a thing in the physical world.

The second command says that if you or anyone else does make such a thing, you are not to worship it.

 

[horizon_mj1]

EXODUS 20 [4] THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANY THING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Is this commandment a 2 parter. Theres 2 thou shalt nots.

Maybe this shows how there can be a differential of circumstance.

 

[Shiranui117]

No, it's forbidding the creation of idols. Creating paintings, drawings, decorations, taking photos, painting icons, etc. are all fine--just don't worship them. Even Solomon lavishly decorated the Temple with sculptures and paintings of plants and cherubim.

 

[horizon_mj1]

No, it's forbidding the creation of idols. Creating paintings, drawings, decorations, taking photos, painting icons, etc. are all fine--just don't worship them. Even Solomon lavishly decorated the Temple with sculptures and paintings of plants and cherubim.

As it is written, yes it is wrong to make any idol, but yet are we not all made in an image of?

 

[outhouse]

EXODUS 20 [4] THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANY THING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Is this commandment a 2 parter. Theres 2 thou shalt nots.

This has to do with the monotheistic reforms of king Josiah after 622 BC.


Many Israelites were not switching to monotheism despite these reforms. Asherah dolls were common as a fertility cult, not everyone had given up El as the father deity.


These writings reflect the governments stance fighting those who did nmot want to reform to monotheism under Yahweh.

 

[horizon_mj1]

I guess God was the one in the Wrong being we were created in his image, yet nothing should be created in His Image.

 

[outhouse]

I guess God was the one in the Wrong being we were created in his image, yet nothing should be created in His Image.

Which god?

El?

Yahweh?

Asherah?

Baal?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Even Solomon lavishly decorated the Temple with sculptures and paintings of plants and cherubim.

But just because Solomon broke one of God's commandments... that doesn't mean that everyone else should.

 

[horizon_mj1]

No, it's forbidding the creation of idols. Creating paintings, drawings, decorations, taking photos, painting icons, etc. are all fine--just don't worship them. Even Solomon lavishly decorated the Temple with sculptures and paintings of plants and cherubim.

As God being a jealous God yet being an understanding God, IMO would much rather you find yourself being the unopposed to deceptive idealizations seek the Realizations in which stand before you and you can not fail.

 

[Sleeppy]

Reality is greater than perception and depiction.

 

[ruffen]

No, it's forbidding the creation of idols. Creating paintings, drawings, decorations, taking photos, painting icons, etc. are all fine--just don't worship them. Even Solomon lavishly decorated the Temple with sculptures and paintings of plants and cherubim.

Isn't the cross an excellent example of creating an idol? An image that is believed by many to give strength and have more or less magical powers?

 

[Shiranui117]

As it is written, yes it is wrong to make any idol, but yet are we not all made in an image of?

An excellent point, and excellent distinction. We are all made in God's image--so really, every time we obey God's command to be fruitful and multiply, we are creating an image of God. When God created Adam and Eve, He created two images of Himself. Are we breaking the First/Second Commandments by obeying God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply? Did God break His own commandment images of Himself in the form of mankind?

Of course not.

But just because Solomon broke one of God's commandments... that doesn't mean that everyone else should.

Solomon didn't break the Commandment by creating images used for decoration. The whole Commandment, "You shall not make an image of anything . . . you shall not worship and serve it." It's one complete thing. It's not a two-parter, "You shall not make images, AND you shall not worship and serve it", but rather, "You shall not make images for the purpose of worshipping and serving it."

 

[Shiranui117]

Isn't the cross an excellent example of creating an idol? An image that is believed by many to give strength and have more or less magical powers?

An idol is something that is worshipped as a god. The Cross has never been worshipped in Christianity.

The Cross is only believed to have power because it is connected with Christ--without the connection to Christ, it would have no power. So really, it is not the cross itself which has any power, but Christ Who was crucified upon it.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Solomon didn't break the Commandment by creating images used for decoration. The whole Commandment, "You shall not make an image of anything . . . you shall not worship and serve it." It's one complete thing. It's not a two-parter, "You shall not make images, AND you shall not worship and serve it", but rather, "You shall not make images for the purpose of worshipping and serving it."

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure you are misreading it. In the form presented, and based on current American English practices, it's two different commandments.

 

[Sees]

An idol is something that is worshipped as a god. The Cross has never been worshipped in Christianity.

The Cross is only believed to have power because it is connected with Christ--without the connection to Christ, it would have no power. So really, it is not the cross itself which has any power, but Christ Who was crucified upon it.

Idol is a physical thing that represents a divine entity...the type of idolatry where the physical object is the divine entity is pretty rare. Many see the cross, the Bible, etc. as idols.

 

[psychoslice]

As it is written, yes it is wrong to make any idol, but yet are we not all made in an image of?

That's a good point, many have made god in their own image and therefore are really worshiping their self.

 

[Shiranui117]

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure you are misreading it. In the form presented, and based on current American English practices, it's two different commandments.

That's because you're looking at it from only a grammatical standpoint and ignoring all other context from the rest of Scripture that informs us as to the exact meaning of the Commandment. You're the one misinterpreting, by ignoring the rest of the Bible and keeping the Commandment out of context.

Again, did God break His own commandment when He made images of Himself in the form of humanity?

Idol is a physical thing that represents a divine entity...the type of idolatry where the physical object is the divine entity is pretty rare. Many see the cross, the Bible, etc. as idols.

Except neither the cross nor the Bible represent God--the Cross is a reminder of what Christ did for us, not Christ Himself. Likewise, the Bible is the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit to convey concepts, messages and teachings from God.

In the Ten Commandments, it's pretty explicit that the images themselves are worshipped.

 

[Sees]

That's because you're looking at it from only a grammatical standpoint and ignoring all other context from the rest of Scripture that informs us as to the exact meaning of the Commandment. You're the one misinterpreting, by ignoring the rest of the Bible and keeping the Commandment out of context.

Again, did God break His own commandment when He made images of Himself in the form of humanity?


Except neither the cross nor the Bible represent God--the Cross is a reminder of what Christ did for us, not Christ Himself. Likewise, the Bible is the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit to convey concepts, messages and teachings from God.

In the Ten Commandments, it's pretty explicit that the images themselves are worshipped.

Yeah the golden calf thing is pretty odd as well as the rest of the descriptions of "pagan" practices in the Bible.

I don't think your average Christian would ever disrespect a cross or a copy of the Bible because of the fact that they really do represent God/Jesus to most. They are not just another symbol or book but special holy ones. This is the heart of idolatry. I'll give you these though as not counting...

What about the thousands of images of Jesus in churches and homes throughout Christendom though? Is it not blatant idolatry by most definitions?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

That's because you're looking at it from only a grammatical standpoint and ignoring all other context from the rest of Scripture that informs us as to the exact meaning of the Commandment. You're the one misinterpreting, by ignoring the rest of the Bible and keeping the Commandment out of context.

No. I'm simply interpreting what God says. Forgive me, but I think most people who argue 'biblical context' are simply arguing for their own personal theological wants.

Again, did God break His own commandment when He made images of Himself in the form of humanity?

God did not command Himself to forego graven images. It's important not to insert our own ideas like that when reading scripture.