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Gravity and the Expanding Universe
- Thread starter rrobs
- Start date
. . . the possibility of variable constants resulting in different universes is based the uncertainty principle of Quantum Mechanics and the possible existence many different universes, Fortunately it has been determined that the uncertainty of Quantum Mechanics is not so uncertain.
It remains simply an unknown whether the physical constants could possibly be variable or constant.
Heyo
Veteran Member
I wouldn't be using the elusive and highly theoretical idea of an intelligent designer to prove anything.
Obviously the current data is insufficient to decide the matter. So we remain agnostic and think about an experiment that could answer the question.
Well, at least those of us who are scientists or scientifically minded. The creationists think about ways to ignore reality.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Because creationist misunderstand science on all levels.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Actually, the favoured hypothesis is we bumped into another rock named Theia and Luna formed from the debris. Origin of the Moon - WikipediaWhat?!
Again?
Didn’t we bump into her, the first time around?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Wow. Thats fantastic. You are a genius really mate. I honestly have only met one other person in my entire life who had studied all of these scriptures. That too, in this very forum. Out side this forum I only know one person, an old lady professor of theology and religion who had studied three languages and three different scriptures. But that's only three. You have surpassed everyone I could ever imagine.
Great going.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Since you have studied the books, can you tell me what the Quran says about how humans should go "verifying" the universe or world? Please do share.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That is a very strange question that you have asked. Why should I worry about what Quran says on verifying universe? Science has done extremely well on that count. I will go with science.
See, how they found the secret of "Blue Ring Nebula". See the video in the article if you have not already seen that.
Tell me something superstitious from that 7th Century book which is equally interesting, something about shayāṭīn, jinn, etc.
Astronomers Discover Mysterious Blue Ring Nebula, See the Fate of Binary Stars
"Combined with stellar evolution models, the observations suggest that TYC 2597-735-1 merged with a lower-mass companion several thousand years ago. TYC 2597-735-1 provides a look at an unobstructed stellar merger at an evolutionary stage between its dynamic onset and the theorized final equilibrium state, enabling the direct study of the merging process."
A blue ring nebula from a stellar merger several thousand years ago | Nature
See, how they found the secret of "Blue Ring Nebula". See the video in the article if you have not already seen that.
Tell me something superstitious from that 7th Century book which is equally interesting, something about shayāṭīn, jinn, etc.
Astronomers Discover Mysterious Blue Ring Nebula, See the Fate of Binary Stars
"Combined with stellar evolution models, the observations suggest that TYC 2597-735-1 merged with a lower-mass companion several thousand years ago. TYC 2597-735-1 provides a look at an unobstructed stellar merger at an evolutionary stage between its dynamic onset and the theorized final equilibrium state, enabling the direct study of the merging process."
A blue ring nebula from a stellar merger several thousand years ago | Nature
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Nah. Its not a strange question. It was asked because you said you have studied the Quran. If you dont worry about it, its your prerogative, but that's not the answer. If you did, you would know. Thats it.
Since you claim you had studied it, you would know everything in that book.
Just that you are not answering anything. Thats whats strange.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Let me guess, something like "When it verifies the Quran it is good and if it contradicts the Quran, forget about it and bury the evidence."
Right?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
When one studies something, one does not pay attention to what is not important. I have other methods to 'verify the universe / world', therefore, I do not need Quran's method. Perhaps you know that the Advaita view of reality is completely different.
It will be a believers who would study each each sentence of Quran and consider it as God's word, not an unbeliever. I do not believe in what you say. Show us some proof if you want other to believe what you say. That is what Quran asks in Surah Al-Baqarah.
It will be a believers who would study each each sentence of Quran and consider it as God's word, not an unbeliever. I do not believe in what you say. Show us some proof if you want other to believe what you say. That is what Quran asks in Surah Al-Baqarah.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Al-Baqarah (Surah Al-Baqarah - 2:111-113):
2:111 The Jews and Christians each claim that none will enter Paradise except those of their own faith. These are their desires. Reply, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Show ˹me˺ your proof if what you say is true.
Show me proof if what you say is true that there is heaven and hell and Allah decides who goes where.
2:112 But no! Whoever submits themselves to Allah and does good will have their reward with their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.
Show me proof if what you say is true that any gains that a man obtains is from this Allah. Will they not grieve in this life or in the next?
2:113 The Jews say, “The Christians have nothing to stand on” and the Christians say, “The Jews have nothing to stand on,” although both recite the Scriptures. And those ˹pagans˺ who have no knowledge say the same ˹about people of faith˺. Surely Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment regarding their dispute.
What proof you have if what you say is true that there will be a Day of Judgment? And what proof you have that an Allah will judge?
Tell me what proof you have to stand on? What truth are you talking about?
Tell me what proof you have to stand on? What truth are you talking about?
And you say "verify truth by Quran"?
2:111 The Jews and Christians each claim that none will enter Paradise except those of their own faith. These are their desires. Reply, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Show ˹me˺ your proof if what you say is true.
Show me proof if what you say is true that there is heaven and hell and Allah decides who goes where.
2:112 But no! Whoever submits themselves to Allah and does good will have their reward with their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.
Show me proof if what you say is true that any gains that a man obtains is from this Allah. Will they not grieve in this life or in the next?
2:113 The Jews say, “The Christians have nothing to stand on” and the Christians say, “The Jews have nothing to stand on,” although both recite the Scriptures. And those ˹pagans˺ who have no knowledge say the same ˹about people of faith˺. Surely Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment regarding their dispute.
What proof you have if what you say is true that there will be a Day of Judgment? And what proof you have that an Allah will judge?
Tell me what proof you have to stand on? What truth are you talking about?
Tell me what proof you have to stand on? What truth are you talking about?
And you say "verify truth by Quran"?
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Nope.
firedragon
Veteran Member
That means you never studied. Maybe read some cherry picked number of verses on a website.
Anyway, you said you studied the thripitaka.
So what does the abidhamma pitaka say how to explore the universe or the world?
exchemist
Veteran Member
While we wait for his answer, can you tell us how the Koran says mankind should "verify the universe or world"?
I must admit I have become intrigued, now that you have raised the subject.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Pay attention to what I said - "to the extent that I can figure out their intent". If one knows the intent, then the details are unnecessary.
What is your answer to my post # 272, FireDragon? Or you want to skip that?
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Okay. So what’s the so called “intent” for f the thripitaka you said you studied enough to know this “intent”?
Of course. However, there is a deeper point to my comment to consider. The mere act of engaging in debate in opposition to a supernatural arguement is counterproductive and serves only to reinforce the supernatural belief. Those that make a supernatural argument are trapped in confirmation bias. To argue scientifically against a supernatural proposition only provides confirmation that there is an idea with value and worth to argue against. Any evidence that contradicts the supernatural position is either consciously or subconsciously ignored or discounted out-of-hand. Since the supernatural position is derived psycho-socially and not scientifically, it is immune to scientific refutation. It may even be the case that the greater the effort to argue against the supernatural the stronger the belief becomes. If the objective is to disprove the supernatural, scientific arguement may not be the best tact.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
One of the problems that cosmology faces is connected to relative reference. Relative reference is valid for visual observations, which are observation that use light/energy to infer the universe. But relative reference is not valid if we also use the mass and inertia which generates this observational energy. The latter data is not easy to come by.
As a simple example, say you were standing at a railroad station and saw a train departing. If we limit ourselves to just the visual evidence, reference becomes relative. I can say I am moving or the train is moving. Both references give similar results in terms of relative velocity.
If we include mass and inertia the train and the man will have different kinetic energies for the same relative velocity. Their kinetic energy will not be relative, since each has a different mass/energy balance, depending on who is moving. That energy balance is connected to the inertia of the mass, and not just an energy emission output signal, which can appear relative to the eyes.
Say you assume relative motion in the train and man scenario. For convenience, say we also assume the person at the station is the one in motion. But say, in reality, the train was in motion based on doing a fuel consumption analysis. Your universal energy balance will be off; too low, since the train has so much more mass and inertia.
There will be extra energy out there that your relative reference model does not see. This extra energy may then appear as anomalies that use the extra energy that your relative reference assumption is ignoring. The consequence for cosmology has been the need to speculate dark energy, which has never been proven to be real in the lab. Dark energy is needed to create an energy balance, since relative references does not allow a good energy balance.
The universe should have a center based on an inertial energy balance. However, since we only have visual evidence; energy emissions, and the relative reference illusion it can create, this center is not easy to infer, from single sensory or visual evidence. Cosmology has fooled itself with its own single sense magic trick. We need two or more senses to see through the visual trick; vision and touch.
As a simple example, say you were standing at a railroad station and saw a train departing. If we limit ourselves to just the visual evidence, reference becomes relative. I can say I am moving or the train is moving. Both references give similar results in terms of relative velocity.
If we include mass and inertia the train and the man will have different kinetic energies for the same relative velocity. Their kinetic energy will not be relative, since each has a different mass/energy balance, depending on who is moving. That energy balance is connected to the inertia of the mass, and not just an energy emission output signal, which can appear relative to the eyes.
Say you assume relative motion in the train and man scenario. For convenience, say we also assume the person at the station is the one in motion. But say, in reality, the train was in motion based on doing a fuel consumption analysis. Your universal energy balance will be off; too low, since the train has so much more mass and inertia.
There will be extra energy out there that your relative reference model does not see. This extra energy may then appear as anomalies that use the extra energy that your relative reference assumption is ignoring. The consequence for cosmology has been the need to speculate dark energy, which has never been proven to be real in the lab. Dark energy is needed to create an energy balance, since relative references does not allow a good energy balance.
The universe should have a center based on an inertial energy balance. However, since we only have visual evidence; energy emissions, and the relative reference illusion it can create, this center is not easy to infer, from single sensory or visual evidence. Cosmology has fooled itself with its own single sense magic trick. We need two or more senses to see through the visual trick; vision and touch.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Buddha never asked his disciples to explore the universe or the world. He expressly said that things which have no relation to your happiness and well-being should not be contemplated on. He termed them as useless deliberations (Acinteyya*). Buddha was a thoroughly practical person. These are the reason why Buddhism disappeared from India. The Buddhist scholars made Buddhism too difficult for common people to understand.
* ".. imponderable or incomprehensible. They denote four issues that should not be thought about, since this distracts from practice, and hinders the attainment of liberation" Acinteyya - Wikipedia