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Greek Myth vs. Christian belief

Oberon

Well-Known Member
I'm aware that Origen believes that Jesus was Jame's brother. Do you understand what "regardless" means? The point I'm making is that Origen gives more than one interpretation for "brother in the Lord." Please try to comprehend that my point is made about how "brother of the Lord" can be interpreted. It's not restricted to one meaning, Origen's statement demonstrates this.


Fine. Your point that there are various theologically motivated interpretations of "brother of the lord" is well taken. Now back to history. Interpretations after the fact, especially when they are theological, do not provide evidence that the syntactic formula used in Paul (or josephus) is used in any way other than to indicate a literal brother.

Where is the evidence of the "division of scholarship" you refer to?

Where is the evidence that "brother of the x" in Greek is used to refer to something other than a literal brother?

Where is the evidence from contemporary sources that James was not an actual brother?
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Fine. Your point that there are various theologically motivated interpretations of "brother of the lord" is well taken. Now back to history. Interpretations after the fact, especially when they are theological, do not provide evidence that the syntactic formula used in Paul (or josephus) is used in any way other than to indicate a literal brother.

Where is the evidence of the "division of scholarship" you refer to?

Who cares? I just wanted to establish the fact that "brother of the Lord" dos not have to refer to a literal brother.

Where is the evidence that "brother of the x" in Greek is used to refer to something other than a literal brother?
Origen just provided that. You have a very short attention span.

Where is the evidence from contemporary sources that James was not an actual brother?
There are none. We just established the fact that "brother of the Lord" is open to interpretation so we can't rely on that, besides, Paul declares that he didn't learn of Christ Jesus from anyone. Gal111I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel [the good news] I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. There are no contemporaries of Jesus either, no one noticed or cared enough to write about him. Considering that the gospels are supposedly accounts of actual events, there sure is very little if anything at all to support such a notion.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Of course, the oddest thing about the Jesus myth is how he seemed to come out of nowhere at the age of 30 (discounting the fictional story when he was 12). Back in those times, 30 was quite old, it seem like Jesus "as God" would have gotten things going at a much earlier age, say 21, after all, he was supposed to be a child prodigy and all that.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Who cares? I just wanted to establish the fact that "brother of the Lord" dos not have to refer to a literal brother.

You stated it exists. If anything you say should be trusted, you should establish that you don't simply make up your evidence. Apparently you did.


Origen just provided that. You have a very short attention span.

No he didn't. Origen interprets the phrase after the fact. He doesn't actually use it. Evidence that the the syntactic usage of this phrase is used other than to refer to a literal brother would be to quote not an interpretation of a text, but a text itself which uses the phrase in that sense. You have yet to do so.


There are none. We just established the fact that "brother of the Lord" is open to interpretation so we can't rely on that
No. All you have established is that it is open to theological interpretation by a theologian.


Paul declares that he didn't learn of Christ Jesus from anyone. Gal111I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel [the good news] I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

A declaration to establish his legitimacy, undermined by the fact that he that spend days "inquiring into" Peter.

Try again.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
You stated it exists. If anything you say should be trusted, you should establish that you don't simply make up your evidence. Apparently you did.




No he didn't. Origen interprets the phrase after the fact. He doesn't actually use it. Evidence that the the syntactic usage of this phrase is used other than to refer to a literal brother would be to quote not an interpretation of a text, but a text itself which uses the phrase in that sense. You have yet to do so.



No. All you have established is that it is open to theological interpretation by a theologian.

You must know I'm getting a kick out of watching you running around changing the positioning of the goal posts. It would never do to find another instance, it wouldn't satisfy your criteria, whatever that is. No, Origen is best because he specifically refers to Paul's wording and defines how it is to be interpreted, it doesn't get more to the point than that. I presented an example of an early Christian scholar explaining the specific phrase and how it is to be interpreted. Label him a theologian, or a martian if you like, I don't care what you call him, he's our guy, and he tells it like it is.



A declaration to establish his legitimacy, undermined by the fact that he that spend days "inquiring into" Peter.

Try again.
Not according to Paul, they merely got "acquainted." Gal.118Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.

The following states the opposite of what you claim. Whom are we to believe, Oberon or Paul?

Gal1,11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel [the good news] I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

You might try again.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
First, you have continually failed to provide evidence to back up your statement that there is a "division in scholarship" over whether James was an actual brother. You have, in the past, misrepresented your sources. Now it is also clear you simply make things up when it suits you.



You must know I'm getting a kick out of watching you running around changing the positioning of the goal posts. It would never do to find another instance, it wouldn't satisfy your criteria, whatever that is. No, Origen is best because he specifically refers to Paul's wording and defines how it is to be interpreted, it doesn't get more to the point than that.

You seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between interpretation and usage. Paul uses a particular phrase. A century and a half later, Origen provides a particular interpration of that phrase, based on his theology. It hardly supports your view.

Let me explain this clearly for you:

Paul uses a specific syntactic formula to indicate a blood relation of Jesus. Throughout the NT, and Greek literature, this syntactic formula (Y the brother of X) is used in this fashion. In order to provide evidence that Paul is not using it in this way, you could do a number of things:

1) You could point to numerous places in greek literature which indicate that this syntactic formula has a range of semantic variation. In other words, you could point to a number of places in greek literature where this syntax is used in a different sense.

2) You could point to that "division of scholarship" you made up.

3) Finally, you could provide alternative evidence from sources contemporary to James or near contemporary that state he was not a brother of Jesus. Unfortunately for you, Paul, Josephus, Mark, and Matthew all state that he was.


Instead, you point to a theologian over a century after the text was written, who interprets it in a particular light. So what? The catholic church has done this throughout most of its existence. It isn't evidence that the phrase Paul uses has a range of semantic variations, only that theologians interpret texts according to preconceived theology.


I presented an example of an early Christian scholar explaining the specific phrase and how it is to be interpreted. Label him a theologian, or a martian if you like, I don't care what you call him, he's our guy, and he tells it like it is.

Right. Again, evidence that later authors interpret the phrase (based on theological motives) in a different light IS NOT EVIDENCE THAT PAUL USED IT THAT WAY!

In fact, your source weakens your case, because Origen specifically uses that syntactic formula shortly before your quote to indicate James as a literal brother.


Not according to Paul, they merely got "acquainted." Gal.118Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.

Again, your failure to understand greek limits your understanding of the text. Paul uses a specific word here: ιστορησαι/historesai. It is the verbal form of the greek word "history." It doesn't simply mean "get acquainted," but rather refers to inquiry into. If Paul had simply wanted to mean he wanted to "get to know" Peter rather than that he was learning the tradition, he would have used gignosko or something similar.


Gal1,11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel [the good news] I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Again, Paul is referring to his legitimacy as an apostle based on his personal revelation from Christ. Others, as he well knows, knew Christ during his life. Hence his fifteen day stay with Peter.

There are no contemporaries of Jesus either, no one noticed or cared enough to write about him.

Wow. A highly illiterate culture has no writings of a figure until two decades after his death. Definitely no one cared. Oh wait, that amount of writing on Jesus in the timespan it occurs is more than most ancient figures. I am afraid you are wrong again.
 
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dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Corinthians1, 9:5Have we no right to lead about a wife that is a believer, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

Jesus' brothers you say.

:biglaugh:
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Corinthians1 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

Big family.:eek:
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
First, you have continually failed to provide evidence to back up your statement that there is a "division in scholarship" over whether James was an actual brother. You have, in the past, misrepresented your sources. Now it is also clear you simply make things up when it suits you.

No true scholar believes James wasn't an actual brother of a real historical Jesus.;)
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Dogsgood, you already admitted that you do not know Greek- so you must know that you can not make an argument based on the grammar and syntax of the sentence.

The question is: do you have any scholarly sources that you can post to substantiate this "brothers of/in the Lord" hypothesis (additionally, enough to constitute a 'division' if you wish to stand by that claim) or is this simply your own amateur scholarship?
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
No true scholar believes James wasn't an actual brother of a real historical Jesus

So are you ready to admit you completely fabricated that division of scholarship?


Corinthians1 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

Big family.:eek:
Totally different syntax (he uses the dative here). Paul, in talking about James, uses a specific syntactic formula used to identify individuals by familial conncections. You wouldn't know, because you aren't familiar with greek literature (and can't read greek) but your quote uses a totally different formula.

Corinthians1, 9:5Have we no right to lead about a wife that is a believer, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

Here the brothers are almost certainly literal brothers. There are a number of clues

1. The typical genitive relationship to indicate literal family connections (hoi adelphoi tou Kyriou) is used
2. The brothers are distinguished from the other apostles
3. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the reference should be taken metaphorically (as there are in other places in Paul). Without such clues, the best way to translate/interpret as the author intended it is to not read into it.


However, the formula in this qoute is different, so it is possible that the phrase is metaphorical (although unlikely).

Let me explain (again):

Paul uses a particular syntactic formula when discussing James (Y the brother of X) which is used to identify Y with other people with the same name as Y, by naming their brother, father, wife, etc. The word "brother" in the NT, and in Greek literature in general, has a range of semantic usages, the most common of course indicating actual blood brothers. When it is not used to indicate an actual brother, there are contextual clues (for example, "brothers in the lord/hoi adelphoi en to kyrio" is not a syntactic formula to indicate actual brothers, because the genitive is used for this, but is clearly metaphorical).

The phrase Paul uses to indicate the relationship between James and Jesus does not have this same semantic variation. It is a standard expression in greek to indicate actual familial relationships in order to identify individuals.
 
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dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Totally different syntax (he uses the dative here). Paul, in talking about James, uses a specific syntactic formula used to identify individuals by familial conncections. You wouldn't know, because you aren't familiar with greek literature (and can't read greek) but your quote uses a totally different formula.



Here the brothers are almost certainly literal brothers. There are a number of clues

1. The typical genitive relationship to indicate literal family connections (hoi adelphoi tou Kyriou) is used
2. The brothers are distinguished from the other apostles
3. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the reference should be taken metaphorically (as there are in other places in Paul). Without such clues, the best way to translate/interpret as the author intended it is to not read into it.


However, the formula in this qoute is different, so it is possible that the phrase is metaphorical (although unlikely).

Let me explain (again):

Paul uses a particular syntactic formula when discussing James (Y the brother of X) which is used to identify Y with other people with the same name as Y, by naming their brother, father, wife, etc. The word "brother" in the NT, and in Greek literature in general, has a range of semantic usages, the most common of course indicating actual blood brothers. When it is not used to indicate an actual brother, there are contextual clues (for example, "brothers in the lord/hoi adelphoi en to kyrio" is not a syntactic formula to indicate actual brothers, because the genitive is used for this, but is clearly metaphorical).

The phrase Paul uses to indicate the relationship between James and Jesus does not have this same semantic variation. It is a standard expression in greek to indicate actual familial relationships in order to identify individuals.


Tell that to Origen.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
I guess you never heard of the no true Scotsman, it applies to your no true scholar.


You stated that their was a "division of scholarship" in regards to James being a literal brother. A division of scholarship generally means that on a particular issue there is no consensus among scholars. At the very least it means a substantial minority disagree with the majority view (for example, you could say that there is a division of scholarship on whether or not Jesus' teachings were apocalyptic, as a fair minority of scholars downplay, marginalize, or reject altogether the apocalyptic sayings attributed to Jesus).

You have yet to refer to any scholars in the field of biblical studies, NT studies, or even early Christian studies (or even ancient history), let alone a "division of scholarship" where (at the least) a substantial minority rejects James as Jesus' actual brother.

Tell that to Origen.

1. Origen doesn't say that James wasn't Jesus' brother.
2. Origen uses that exact syntactic formula shortly before your quote to refer to a James as an actual brother.
3. You still seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between usage and theological interpretation. Origen doesn't provide any evidence whatsoever that the syntactic formula Paul uses is ever referred to in any way other than to specificy an actual brother. All he does is use his theological presuppositions to add on to his understanding of James' brotherhood.

Again, if you want to show that the Paul's formula varies semantically in greek, you would have to point to other usages of this formula that differ semantically. However, as you don't know greek, I understand this is impossible for you. So I would be content if you could point to that "division of scholarship" you refer to.

Unfortunately for you, you made it up.
 
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dogsgod

Well-Known Member
On the other hand, it seems just as likely that "brother(s) of the Lord" referred originally to a group or class of missionary itinerants, as in Matthew 25:40 and 3 John 1:3, 5 8, and that the epithet thus no more implied physical relation to Jesus than Paul and Apollos, as "colleagues of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 3:9), would have had offices next to the Almighty's. It is not unlikely that "brother(s) of the Lord" came later to be historicized, misunderstood in literal fashion in order to satisfy the same biographical curiosity that eventually filled the apocryphal Infancy Gospels with details of the childhood and home life of Jesus (though, as we have seen, all this would soon clash with the perpetual virginity doctrine).

Robert M Price.

I rest my case.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
On the other hand, it seems just as likely that "brother(s) of the Lord" referred originally to a group or class of missionary itinerants, as in Matthew 25:40 and 3 John 1:3, 5 8, and that the epithet thus no more implied physical relation to Jesus than Paul and Apollos, as "colleagues of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 3:9), would have had offices next to the Almighty's. It is not unlikely that "brother(s) of the Lord" came later to be historicized, misunderstood in literal fashion in order to satisfy the same biographical curiosity that eventually filled the apocryphal Infancy Gospels with details of the childhood and home life of Jesus (though, as we have seen, all this would soon clash with the perpetual virginity doctrine).

Robert M Price.


1) Even if we accepted Price's argument, the statement "brothers of the lord" is a different syntactic formula than "James, the brother of the lord." The former is just indicating blood relations, but it could potentially (although it is unlikely, as I already said) be taken as an extension of the "brother" metaphor throughought Paul. However, The latter is a syntactic formula used to identify an individual by familial connections. So even if we accepted, for the sake of argument, that "brothers of the lord" is the same as "brothers in the lord," that still doesn't explain the James formula

2) Pointing to a single scholar, particularly one whose specialty is peripheral to this field, hardly represents that "division of scholarship" you fabricated.

3) Price is attempting extend the general use of "brother" in Paul to a syntactic formula which differs semantically from other usages.

4) Finally, James is also attested to as a brother by Josephus, Mark, and Matthew

I rest my case.
You don't have one. You fabricated a division of scholarship, and you have yet to point out a range of semantic variation for the formula used in Gal for James.
 
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