Deut 13:1
Well-Known Member
Well... You're more then free to prove otherwise.JonM said:Okay, well you said my beliefs were "trash" and that they violate "the essence of Judaism," so I was just checking.
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Well... You're more then free to prove otherwise.JonM said:Okay, well you said my beliefs were "trash" and that they violate "the essence of Judaism," so I was just checking.
I'm not saying you're not a jew, in fact, I said...JonM said:I don't think that's my job. I think it's your responsibility to let me have my beliefs and treat me as an equal, because you and I are of the same blood. That would be true just from human to human, but it's certainly true for two Jews. You've heard what I think of the Torah and Halacha. Many Jews agree with me, many with you, and most are somewhere in between. I am as much a Jew as you are.
Were you born of a Jewish mother? Then you're Jewish. Period. Nor have I claimed yer not Jewish, so don't put words in my mouth.
You're taking this wayyy to personal. The fact is from what you've said that your relationship w/ G-d is on your terms. I find that concept trash. G-d says to love him by doing his commandments, not by ignoring them but proclaiming yer love over and over.JonM said:I knew I would be a controversial figure here, but I didn't expect people to challenge the validity of my beliefs. I thought people on a forum devoted to religion would understand that religion is a deeply personal thing, regardless of one's degree of observance. Pointing out internal inconsistencies in one's belief system and making ethical arguments against someone is one thing, but asserting that one's mode of faith is "trash" is quite another. A lot of rabbis would not be okay with that, either.
The concept you find to be trash is the heart of my beliefs and the root of my faith. Consider that for a second.Deut 13:1 said:You're taking this wayyy to personal. The fact is from what you've said that your relationship w/ G-d is on your terms. I find that concept trash. G-d says to love him by doing his commandments, not by ignoring them but proclaiming yer love over and over.
If you're not able to do all of His commandments, fine, just say so. But arbitarily picking which are valid and which aren't is doing the same thing Christianity is doing. Making the relationship on your terms.
and murder? What if I don't feel like keeping that one today...JonM said:We keep the ones we are moved to keep.
i find this true even today of following mitzvot...or as many as i canJonM said:But I can readily believe that people 6,000 years ago, with drastically less advanced science and a much smaller universe, believed that such commandments must have been from God, because it seemed that good came from following them then.
That makes sense to me, but I feel that human poets are just as capable of such work, but that may have more to do with the fact that I haven't reached every level on which the Torah operates.jewscout said:Because it exists on these many levels, IMPO, only a being that exists on a level greater and higher than ourselves could have revealed it.
So could I, my friend. Easily.jewscout said:i could be wrong
nor have i but, to me anyways, it seems like the knowledge the Torah holds goes on and on...i can't imagine shakespeare doing the same w/ his work, as great as it is held.JonM said:That makes sense to me, but I feel that human poets are just as capable of such work, but that may have more to do with the fact that I haven't reached every level on which the Torah operates.
Perhaps if he wrote something as long as the Torah?jewscout said:nor have i but, to me anyways, it seems like the knowledge the Torah holds goes on and on...i can't imagine shakespeare doing the same w/ his work, as great as it is held.
That wasn't for you, Binyamin. It was for Yoni, here.And where have I put forth an argument based on health? Open your version of the Torah to Exodus 23:19, Exodus 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.
Health was always just sort of my understanding of why the emphasis was cleanliness in some cases. I may have been thinking too literally. I'm really just speculating on what the underlying motivations for some of the seemingly arbitrary laws, such as the two you mentioned, must have been. Of course, that's because I believe that they were written by people, so you may find that totally blasphemous.Avi said:That wasn't for you, Binyamin. It was for Yoni, here.
Yes, it's called a niggun, or however you spell it. There are tons of them.JonM said:I believe that God does not communicate in words is because all of my encounters with the divine have been wordless. Since all of creation is God's expression, the written word conveys a negligible amount of information compared to, well, the totality of observable existence, or even just the tiny fraction of it that I've experienced. I hear so much more of God from the room full of loving people chanting and singing together than I do from the actual words they're chanting. We could just as easily be humming and I'd still get it.
So you believe in relative morality. Fine, what if I feel murdering John Doe is what G-d wants me to do today.JonM said:In the same way, when I do something right, the results feel right, and when I do something wrong, they feel wrong. I derive my morality from my understanding of the impacts of my actions on God's creation, whether my actions make the world better or worse.
I kind of guessed you were not shomer shabbas,JonM said:I frequently work on Saturday, and I don't approve of capital punishment, and the world, God's creation, seems to be better, or at least no worse, for all of that.
If it's possible that men made up Mitzvah # x, y, and z, isn't it more then likely that mitzvah g (don't murder), could have and probably was made up?JonM said:But I can readily believe that people 6,000 years ago, with drastically less advanced science and a much smaller universe, believed that such commandments must have been from God, because it seemed that good came from following them then. Do you see what I mean?
Be honest, have you ever read what the regulations are...? And the commentary of Rabbinic scholars?JonM said:Many of the commandments are obvious to me; I'm aware of what the consequences would be if I killed someone, stole something, or even disrespected my parents, and I see that as God's will that I not do those things. But there just isn't the same impact from not cutting the hair on the sides of my head.
Apologies.Avi said:That wasn't for you, Binyamin. It was for Yoni, here.
That's not my point. My point is that it's more about the community and the music than the words.Deut 13:1 said:Yes, it's called a niggun, or however you spell it. There are tons of them.
I mean, that's really not what I said. Read it again.Deut 13:1 said:So you believe in relative morality. Fine, what if I feel murdering John Doe is what G-d wants me to do today.
Not in the traditional sense, no. I almost always do something spiritual to mark the beginning and the end of Shabbat, and I always use my weekends for rest and integration of the events of the week, I just don't follow the rules to the letter. I follow the spirit.Deut 13:1 said:I kind of guessed you were not shomer shabbas,
If that's the case, then they are not following the laws in the Torah that call for capital punishment for crimes far less heinous than those that result in the death penalty in the modern American legal system.Deut 13:1 said:Yes, and you will be hard-pressed to find one Orthodox Jew who would encourage the death penalty right now.
I never said "made up." I said:Deut 13:1 said:If it's possible that men made up Mitzvah # x, y, and z, isn't it more then likely that mitzvah g (don't murder), could have and probably was made up?
In no way do I believe that the laws of the Torah were made up. I believe that they were the best possible understandings of God's creation available to people of a much simpler time, and now our understanding is better. Our understanding of God's law has improved! We are closer to God! So we have new laws, compiled in modern Reconstructionist commentaries, but mostly just determined by discourse within Reconstructionist communities. For that reason, we are very politically active as a religious group.me said:I can readily believe that people 6,000 years ago, with drastically less advanced science and a much smaller universe, believed that such commandments must have been from God, because it seemed that good came from following them then.
I can say with utmost honesty that I am more learned about the 613 mitzvot than the majority of Jews I've ever met. That is relative, of course, because most Jews I've met are not very observant, but I did go to religious school at a Traditional synagogue up until I reached Bar Mitzvah age. In fact, I'd say my knowledge of the mitzvot, while detailed, was limited and slanted because of the Orthodox agenda at my synagogue, and for that reason I rejected it, and Judaism altogether, for a long time.Deut 13:1 said:Be honest, have you ever read what the regulations are...? And the commentary of Rabbinic scholars?
Let me ask you: What is more important to G-d, in your opinion, deeds or "faith" in him?JonM said:That's not my point. My point is that it's more about the community and the music than the words.
The spirit? The spirit of the shabbat was to rest as G-d did; i.e. ABSTAIN from work. Work, logically can constitute any form of human invention or power over nature, can we accept that? Lets say we do: would it not be spiritually satisfying to remind oneself of the humility one feels before G-d? Not to turn on a light or drive or watch TV? All of which demonstrates how technologically advanced we are; and the power over nature we possess, when we suspend all of this, we give G-d that day to honor him and to the nature he created for us to endure.JonM said:Not in the traditional sense, no. I almost always do something spiritual to mark the beginning and the end of Shabbat, and I always use my weekends for rest and integration of the events of the week, I just don't follow the rules to the letter. I follow the spirit.
Be careful when you say: "Our understanding of G-d's law has improved!" Or, for that matter, we are closer to G-d. A bold statement such as this makes you sound as if your struggle with Torah (for this case, lets just refer to it as a form of religious commandments) is easier now than it was for the ancient Israelites. I believe that symbolizes the covenant and immortality of Jewish brotherhood; the fact that our struggle now is just the same as our ancestors today (I know I am not of the covenant, but for the my sake, and the inevitability, I will refer to your people as my people too).JonM said:In no way do I believe that the laws of the Torah were made up. I believe that they were the best possible understandings of God's creation available to people of a much simpler time, and now our understanding is better. Our understanding of God's law has improved! We are closer to God! So we have new laws, compiled in modern Reconstructionist commentaries, but mostly just determined by discourse within Reconstructionist communities. For that reason, we are very politically active as a religious group.
Commentary takes hundreds, if not thousands, of years of scrutiny and review to be accepted into the halakha. If we accepted commentary newer than that we would not give those commentaries time to be reviewed by several generations in order to ensure its absolute reverence to Torah. I think it absurd to alter Jewish tradition in such a short time!JonM said:As for the commentary, of course I'm not as well read as you are. I'm eighteen years old. We learned some Mishnah in religious school, and I've thumbed disinterestedly through a Tanakh under the supervision of my old rabbi, but I couldn't really quote anything for you. My knowledge of Talmud is practically the Wikipedia version. I realize that. However, the beliefs I'm defending to you are not just mine. They are the beliefs of an entire order of Jews who have their own rabbinic commentaries. Orthodox Jews may reject them because they're less than 50 years old instead of 5,000, but Reconstructionists see them as equally valid and more applicable to our time.
Yes, and my point is orthodox judaism also has things that are more important then the words, aka music (although w/out instruments)JonM said:That's not my point. My point is that it's more about the community and the music than the words.
Would my gentile roommate would be considered Jewish then? He welcomes the Sabbath with a frat party... Not that he even knows it's the Sabbath.JonM said:Not in the traditional sense, no. I almost always do something spiritual to mark the beginning and the end of Shabbat, and I always use my weekends for rest and integration of the events of the week, I just don't follow the rules to the letter. I follow the spirit.
Explain to me how you become closer by ignoring what G-d says? Oh you have deleted and added new laws, I'm so glad that you and your buddies admit to be liers. Do me the honor and open your Torah up to Deut 4:2 and 13:1-7 and remind me what they say, my memory must be hazy...JonM said:I never said "made up." I said:
In no way do I believe that the laws of the Torah were made up. I believe that they were the best possible understandings of God's creation available to people of a much simpler time, and now our understanding is better. Our understanding of God's law has improved! We are closer to God! So we have new laws, compiled in modern Reconstructionist commentaries, but mostly just determined by discourse within Reconstructionist communities. For that reason, we are very politically active as a religious group.
Good, let's talk about Tefillin then. What in your opinion is Tefillin, and the reason we use it?JonM said:I can say with utmost honesty that I am more learned about the 613 mitzvot than the majority of Jews I've ever met. That is relative, of course, because most Jews I've met are not very observant, but I did go to religious school at a Traditional synagogue up until I reached Bar Mitzvah age. In fact, I'd say my knowledge of the mitzvot, while detailed, was limited and slanted because of the Orthodox agenda at my synagogue, and for that reason I rejected it, and Judaism altogether, for a long time.
And how old do you think I am???JonM said:As for the commentary, of course I'm not as well read as you are. I'm eighteen years old.
Well, at least you know what the terms are. :bounceJonM said:We learned some Mishnah in religious school, and I've thumbed disinterestedly through a Tanakh under the supervision of my old rabbi, but I couldn't really quote anything for you. My knowledge of Talmud is practically the Wikipedia version. I realize that. However, the beliefs I'm defending to you are not just mine.
Well, Most of them probably don't even know what the Talmud is. At the school I go to, there are 30 Jews or so, 2 furm including me. I'd venture to say the majority go to service on Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, and a few attempt to keep reformed kosher during Pesach, although they are so poorly educated in Judaism they don't realize the plates are not kosher. It's sad more then anything else, they were cheated out of their history as well as a solid education. If they don't want to be observant, fine, but I think they should at least have the educational background to make a educated decision.JonM said:They are the beliefs of an entire order of Jews who have their own rabbinic commentaries.
You know, I think I'm going to go write down my own commentary on the verses, maybe change a few things here or there, such as murder, and you know, I always wanted to worship 10 G-ds, not 1, maybe I'll change that too, but because I'm born Jewish by halacha, I think I'll call it The New Reformed-Reconstructionalist Judaism. I bet you I can even get my own forum too!JonM said:Orthodox Jews may reject them because they're less than 50 years old instead of 5,000, but Reconstructionists see them as equally valid and more applicable to our time.