Guided Evolution as Exclaimed by the Quran

[tariqkhwaja]

Assalamualaikum.

Is it not enough evidence that the third attribute of God in the Quran is Rab? Especially for those who are attuned with Arabic should not term evolution as a non-Islamic concept when "Rab" is used to introduce us to God. Anyone who is curious should check Lane and Aqrab for the definitions of "Rab" (click here (http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000168.pdf) right column 2nd para end). And there they will find one who completes in degrees. Does not the Arabic lexicon contain the word "Tarabiyyat" the root word of which is also "Rab"? Isn't the Islamic concept of God the Lord that leads to perfection in degrees and stages? How, then, does this contradict the theory of evolution? In fact the theory of Evolution (that with the progression of time species have evolved from uni-cellular organisms to various animals and finally human beings) is perfectly supported by the Quran. If not then show how the theory contradicts the Quran. Has it not been written in the Quran:

Man, what has emboldened thee against thy Gracious Lord, Who created thee, then perfected thee, then proportioned thee aright? He fashioned thee in whatever form He pleased. (Al Quran 82:7-9)

The verse clearly state that our creation was not the same as our perfection which was not the same as our proportioning. The three are mentioned as seperate stages. And then:

What is the matter with you that you expect not wisdom (intelligence) and staidness from Allah? While He has created you in different forms and ever changing states? Have you not seen how Allah has created seven heavens in perfect harmony, and has placed the moon therein as a light, and made the sun as a lamp? (Al Quran 71:14-17)

In fact the whole process of Evolution was very obviously guided by a Creator ("whatever form He pleased") and it takes great leaps of probabilistic impossibilities for someone to suggest otherwise. An evolution by chance or merely in the grips of natural selection could certainly not have led it to humans. But the Quran clearly supports our stage by stage evolution from initial creation until our current state. For Muslims to deny this and immitate Christians in their fairy tale stories of a man and a woman from his chest is a grave error.

Where is the "wisdom and staidness" in that? Look at the various religions of the world and their claim that life started with rishis or one man, etc. And look at the clear statements by the Quran on the origin of life.

Is it not written that Adam was God's first Khalifa (vicegerent) on Earth? Can one be a Khalifa of oneself? To whom was Adam representing God? Specifically the Quran does not call him the first human on Earth but he is known instead as God's first Khalifa (caliph) on Earth. One needs a community to be a Khalifa off. It makes no sense to have a caliph appointed to nobody. Therefore a community of humans must have been present to whom Adam was appointed a caliph.

And there is still more evidence that I should point to soon. The Quran on one hand giving fresh scientific signs of truth and all the other religious books on the other hand.

 

[Blackheart]

Assalamualaikum.

Is it not enough evidence that the third attribute of God in the Quran is Rab? Especially for those who are attuned with Arabic should not term evolution as a non-Islamic concept when "Rab" is used to introduce us to God. Anyone who is curious should check Lane and Aqrab for the definitions of "Rab" (click here (http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000168.pdf) right column 2nd para end). And there they will find one who completes in degrees. Does not the Arabic lexicon contain the word "Tarabiyyat" the root word of which is also "Rab"? Isn't the Islamic concept of God the Lord that leads to perfection in degrees and stages? How, then, does this contradict the theory of evolution? In fact the theory of Evolution (that with the progression of time species have evolved from uni-cellular organisms to various animals and finally human beings) is perfectly supported by the Quran. If not then show how the theory contradicts the Quran. Has it not been written in the Quran:



The verse clearly state that our creation was not the same as our perfection which was not the same as our proportioning. The three are mentioned as seperate stages. And then:



In fact the whole process of Evolution was very obviously guided by a Creator ("whatever form He pleased") and it takes great leaps of probabilistic impossibilities for someone to suggest otherwise. An evolution by chance or merely in the grips of natural selection could certainly not have led it to humans. But the Quran clearly supports our stage by stage evolution from initial creation until our current state. For Muslims to deny this and immitate Christians in their fairy tale stories of a man and a woman from his chest is a grave error.

Where is the "wisdom and staidness" in that? Look at the various religions of the world and their claim that life started with rishis or one man, etc. And look at the clear statements by the Quran on the origin of life.

Is it not written that Adam was God's first Khalifa (vicegerent) on Earth? Can one be a Khalifa of oneself? To whom was Adam representing God? Specifically the Quran does not call him the first human on Earth but he is known instead as God's first Khalifa (caliph) on Earth. One needs a community to be a Khalifa off. It makes no sense to have a caliph appointed to nobody. Therefore a community of humans must have been present to whom Adam was appointed a caliph.

And there is still more evidence that I should point to soon. The Quran on one hand giving fresh scientific signs of truth and all the other religious books on the other hand.

First of all you need to start with establishing whether or not there is any evidence for evolution before you waste your time trying to make it fit with your religion. Go beyond the words you hear and seek the evidence. If you are able to find the evidence without someone having to fill your head with a few THEORIES presented as evidence then please get back to me and we will make it fit together. Otherwise you might just be wasting your time.

 

[Father Heathen]

First of all you need to start with establishing whether or not there is any evidence for evolution before you waste your time trying to make it fit with your religion. Go beyond the words you hear and seek the evidence.

There is an insurmountable mountain of evidence that's unanimously accepted by the international scientific community and that's only rejected by willfully ignorant fundies who insist on a literal interpretation of ancient creation myths that don't have any evidence.

If you are able to find the evidence without someone having to fill your head with a few THEORIES presented as evidence then please get back to me and we will make it fit together. Otherwise you might just be wasting your time.

Why emphasize the word "theory" when were talking about scientific theory (you know, like gravity). Further reading.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Gentlemen (or ladies).

I am telling you using evidence pointed out by the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian 100 years ago (back when most people still believed Adam was the first human on Earth) that Adam was, in fact, the first representative of God to humans and that humans existed before.

Since the Quran says it for me its a scientific fact. Of course as time progressed like most things science as humans know it supported what Quran stated 1400 years ago.

 

[Android]

Gentlemen (or ladies).

I am telling you using evidence.....

No, your'e not.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

“Every scientific truth goes through three states: first, people say it conflicts with the Bible; next, they say it has been discovered before lastly, they say they always believed it.”

 

[outhouse]

Gentlemen (or ladies).

I am telling you using evidence pointed out by the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian 100 years ago (back when most people still believed Adam was the first human on Earth) that Adam was, in fact, the first representative of God to humans and that humans existed before.

Since the Quran says it for me its a scientific fact. Of course as time progressed like most things science as humans know it supported what Quran stated 1400 years ago.

well you missed the boat

adamu was a creation story from teh sumerian culture thousands of years before the hebrews adam

guess what!! these same semetic speaking people came from that culture to form part of the ancient hebrew culture bring that same story with them.

creation was a myth then as it is now

 

[outhouse]

No, your'e not.

I have to agree, its not really evidence of any kind.

 

[Looncall]

In fact the whole process of Evolution was very obviously guided by a Creator ("whatever form He pleased") and it takes great leaps of probabilistic impossibilities for someone to suggest otherwise. An evolution by chance or merely in the grips of natural selection could certainly not have led it to humans.

Please justify these statements. They seem to me to be merely confident ignorance.

The book "Climbing Mount Improbable" would do you much good and help you avoid making a fool of yourself and your religion.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

@Android @outhouse
Firstly may I clarify use of the word "evidence":

Thesis: Quran supports theory of evolution.
Evidence: Verses from the Holy Quran

Right? "Evidence" does not in this case refer to the common assumption that Quran is right. That is an argument that would work in the case of Muslims only. The Quran witness does not lend credibility of a theory for non-Muslims obviously. Rather, in this argument I was trying to lend credibility to the Quran by showing that it believed in evolution (a recently discovered scientific theory) 1400 years ago. I hope that clarifies.


@Looncall:
Survival of the fittest is not enough. It was not a game of chance but was rather a game of chess. The chicken and egg problem existed at every step of the evolutionary process. When one views the improbabilities and associated occurrences with an honest mind one is forced to conclude Divine Hand was guiding the process. These are hints. If you please we can go into detailed discussion with examples of this.

 

[outhouse]

@Android @outhouse
Firstly may I clarify use of the word "evidence":

Thesis: Quran supports theory of evolution.
Evidence: Verses from the Holy Quran

Right? "Evidence" does not in this case refer to the common assumption that Quran is right. That is an argument that would work in the case of Muslims only. The Quran witness does not lend credibility of a theory for non-Muslims obviously. Rather, in this argument I was trying to lend credibility to the Quran by showing that it believed in evolution (a recently discovered scientific theory) 1400 years ago. I hope that clarifies.


@Looncall:
Survival of the fittest is not enough. It was not a game of chance but was rather a game of chess. The chicken and egg problem existed at every step of the evolutionary process. When one views the improbabilities and associated occurrences with an honest mind one is forced to conclude Divine Hand was guiding the process. These are hints. If you please we can go into detailed discussion with examples of this.

its great you have a open mind about evolution, thats a great start.

If you can read evolution in its pages more power to you




I only have a issue with the guided part, so far no biologist anywhere at any time has seen a place that we could attribute a deity and or guidence.


Im glad you are looking at this with positivity

the chicken and egg are not a big deal in the scheme of things regarding evolution, it was a natural proccess.

 

[YmirGF]

Im glad you are looking at this with positivity

the chicken and egg are not a big deal in the scheme of things regarding evolution, it was a natural proccess.

Agreed. It's a start, however pathetic. The weird part is that, for the most part, Muslims endlessly debunk any belief in Evolution. Most are stridently creationists who go on, at length, about how very wrong the ToE is.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Your reply encouragingly suggests I am slowly meeting your standard. Which is completely not my intent nor case. That is why I was quick to point out that members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community believed the Quran supported our gradual evolution more than 100 years ago back when few in Europe (let alone India) considered this belief worthy of consideration.

Well lets start with deciding how much of a role natural selection (NS) plays. For starters NS only determines survival of the fittest. The "fittest" for one time may not be the "fittest" for another time. For example suppose girraffes due to their height survived a period of general drought as they could reach the helms of trees other animals could not. But what's to say they would survive a period of great cold when height gives no advantage. A species surviving extremely hot weather may be the fittest for one prolonged climate but what's to say that species would survive the next climate?

Fittest in "Period 1" is not necessarily the fittest in "Period 2". The "Might is Right" principle which is the core of natural selection is not a true principle that survives the times. Thus natural selection's role in the evolution of species is much more limited than its proponents would have us believe.

 

[Looncall]

@Android @outhouse


@Looncall:
Survival of the fittest is not enough. It was not a game of chance but was rather a game of chess. The chicken and egg problem existed at every step of the evolutionary process. When one views the improbabilities and associated occurrences with an honest mind one is forced to conclude Divine Hand was guiding the process. These are hints. If you please we can go into detailed discussion with examples of this.

Details would be nice.

As far as I can see, you are deliberately ignoring the role of "ratcheting" by which gains at one time are added to by later gains, all adding up to large changes over long times.

I do not find that I am forced to any such conclusion at all. Goddidit is just the cry of defeat uttered by the ignorant.

 

[Looncall]

Well lets start with deciding how much of a role natural selection (NS) plays. For starters NS only determines survival of the fittest. The "fittest" for one time may not be the "fittest" for another time. For example suppose girraffes due to their height survived a period of general drought as they could reach the helms of trees other animals could not. But what's to say they would survive a period of great cold when height gives no advantage. A species surviving extremely hot weather may be the fittest for one prolonged climate but what's to say that species would survive the next climate?

Fittest in "Period 1" is not necessarily the fittest in "Period 2". The "Might is Right" principle which is the core of natural selection is not a true principle that survives the times. Thus natural selection's role in the evolution of species is much more limited than its proponents would have us believe.

Your description is actually quite accurate. Your conclusion is not.

You are ignoring the fact that something like 99% of the species that have existed are now extinct. Natural selection is just a filter of the changes that arise due to occurrances such as mutations. For evolution, there must be both variation and selection, both of which are observed to occur.

 

[DarkSun]

Assalamualaikum.

Is it not enough evidence that the third attribute of God in the Quran is Rab? Especially for those who are attuned with Arabic should not term evolution as a non-Islamic concept when "Rab" is used to introduce us to God. Anyone who is curious should check Lane and Aqrab for the definitions of "Rab" (click here (http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000168.pdf) right column 2nd para end). And there they will find one who completes in degrees. Does not the Arabic lexicon contain the word "Tarabiyyat" the root word of which is also "Rab"? Isn't the Islamic concept of God the Lord that leads to perfection in degrees and stages? How, then, does this contradict the theory of evolution? In fact the theory of Evolution (that with the progression of time species have evolved from uni-cellular organisms to various animals and finally human beings) is perfectly supported by the Quran. If not then show how the theory contradicts the Quran. Has it not been written in the Quran:



The verse clearly state that our creation was not the same as our perfection which was not the same as our proportioning. The three are mentioned as seperate stages. And then:



In fact the whole process of Evolution was very obviously guided by a Creator ("whatever form He pleased") and it takes great leaps of probabilistic impossibilities for someone to suggest otherwise. An evolution by chance or merely in the grips of natural selection could certainly not have led it to humans. But the Quran clearly supports our stage by stage evolution from initial creation until our current state. For Muslims to deny this and immitate Christians in their fairy tale stories of a man and a woman from his chest is a grave error.

Where is the "wisdom and staidness" in that? Look at the various religions of the world and their claim that life started with rishis or one man, etc. And look at the clear statements by the Quran on the origin of life.

Is it not written that Adam was God's first Khalifa (vicegerent) on Earth? Can one be a Khalifa of oneself? To whom was Adam representing God? Specifically the Quran does not call him the first human on Earth but he is known instead as God's first Khalifa (caliph) on Earth. One needs a community to be a Khalifa off. It makes no sense to have a caliph appointed to nobody. Therefore a community of humans must have been present to whom Adam was appointed a caliph.

And there is still more evidence that I should point to soon. The Quran on one hand giving fresh scientific signs of truth and all the other religious books on the other hand.

But why did it have to be Allah that guided evolution? Why not the Flying Spaghetti Monster? And evolution occurred over billions of years. By suggesting Allah guided evolution, are you suggesting that the Koran's depiction of the age of the Earth is incorrect?

 

[YmirGF]

Your reply encouragingly suggests I am slowly meeting your standard. Which is completely not my intent nor case. That is why I was quick to point out that members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community believed the Quran supported our gradual evolution more than 100 years ago back when few in Europe (let alone India) considered this belief worthy of consideration.

Well lets start with deciding how much of a role natural selection (NS) plays. For starters NS only determines survival of the fittest. The "fittest" for one time may not be the "fittest" for another time. For example suppose girraffes due to their height survived a period of general drought as they could reach the helms of trees other animals could not. But what's to say they would survive a period of great cold when height gives no advantage. A species surviving extremely hot weather may be the fittest for one prolonged climate but what's to say that species would survive the next climate?

Fittest in "Period 1" is not necessarily the fittest in "Period 2". The "Might is Right" principle which is the core of natural selection is not a true principle that survives the times. Thus natural selection's role in the evolution of species is much more limited than its proponents would have us believe.

Interesting. It is little wonder then why all too many Muslims see the Ahmadiyya sect as heretics and are only too happy to persecute you for your beliefs.

 

[fantome profane]

There is a really subtle distinction here that needs to be carefully made. The idea that the development of life is guided by some divine hand is not part of the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution is a scientifically sufficient explanation that does not require the inclusion of any divine, supernatural, or spiritual elements. However the theory of evolution cannot rule out the possibility of divine interference. Science is just not equipped to rule out these kind of unfalsifiable hypotheses.

 

[England my lionheart]

Gentlemen (or ladies).

I am telling you using evidence pointed out by the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian 100 years ago (back when most people still believed Adam was the first human on Earth) that Adam was, in fact, the first representative of God to humans and that humans existed before.

How can that be,in the Qur'an Adam is 90 feet tall

 

[YmirGF]

How can that be,in the Qur'an Adam is 90 feet tall

There ya go again, telling tall tales!

Hey look, he even left a footprint........

Talk about "Bigfoot", eh?