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Gun control question

kashmir

Well-Known Member
Was is so typical of the disingenuous way of some is that they automatically jump to the idea that people like me want to take guns away from honest Americans.

I just went by what you said, that seems to be what you meant.
You said we have more guns than "them" and higher crimes than "them"
what else would you be meaning?

Like I said, we are not them, so their ways are not are ways to begin with.
Its not the guns, its the culture, the way of life that has been since it became what it is.

Its like lining up domino's pushing the first one over and in the middle of the falling, going back and standing the first one back up, to stop the falling.
Wont happen.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I just went by what you said, that seems to be what you meant.
You said we have more guns than "them" and higher crimes than "them"
what else would you be meaning?

Like I said, we are not them, so their ways are not are ways to begin with.
Its not the guns, its the culture, the way of life that has been since it became what it is.

That is not what I was referring to with your response as I was not alluding to comparing us with others in my last post. Secondly, "guns", and how we look at them and use them, is very much a part of a country's "culture", so they cannot logically be stripped away from it.

Certainly there are always going to be other factors involved, and I certainly would never deny that, but the unfortunate reality is that so many of the "pro-gun" people haven't studied the data, and so many simply don't seem to be even interested in studying it or just pooh-pooh it away by citing any excuse they can try and get away with. It's all too often just a reflection of their arrogance on steroids.

A much more honest and intelligent approach would be for them to ask what some of us who are worried about gun violence in this country would suggest be done, but most often all we get back from the "gun-lovers" is to dishonestly take us to the opposite extreme and have us wanting to abolish all guns. And trying to have any kind of civil discussion with this element is darn near impossible based on my experiences and observations.

Therefore, next time let me recommend you ask maybe what we may recommend instead of stereotyping us and jumping to unwarranted conclusions.
 

Cardboard

Member
Will either of these two always work? Of course not, but the stats indicate that they work better than playing Rambo.

So you think that people that own guns are playing Rambo?

Gun ownership is not about hunting or personal protection only. This is not, what the 2nd amendment was put in place for, nor was it placed there to allow us to posses muskets against M16’s or AK’s.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That is not what I was referring to with your response as I was not alluding to comparing us with others in my last post. Secondly, "guns", and how we look at them and use them, is very much a part of a country's "culture", so they cannot logically be stripped away from it.

Certainly there are always going to be other factors involved, and I certainly would never deny that, but the unfortunate reality is that so many of the "pro-gun" people haven't studied the data, and so many simply don't seem to be even interested in studying it or just pooh-pooh it away by citing any excuse they can try and get away with. It's all too often just a reflection of their arrogance on steroids.

A much more honest and intelligent approach would be for them to ask what some of us who are worried about gun violence in this country would suggest be done, but most often all we get back from the "gun-lovers" is to dishonestly take us to the opposite extreme and have us wanting to abolish all guns. And trying to have any kind of civil discussion with this element is darn near impossible based on my experiences and observations.
I agree with the underlined portion about your difficulties.

We should note that the anti-gun types made many dire predictions when Michiganistan
be came a quasi-shall issue, & they were proven wrong by actual results.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So you think that people that own guns are playing Rambo?

Never said nor implied that.

Gun ownership is not about hunting or personal protection only? this is not, what the 2nd amendment was put in place for, nor was it placed there to allow us to posses muskets against M16’s or AK’s.

And you think that I'm not aware of that?

And see my last post above.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Two large American studies found that if one keeps a loaded gun in their home, the chances are roughly 20 times greater that they or a member of their family versus the intruder will get killed.

OTOH, what do the police and FBI recommend? First is preventative-- make our house less likely to be broken into to begin with. Second, call 911.

Will either of these two always work? Of course not, but the stats indicate that they work better than playing Rambo.

Well the average wait time for the police to respond to a 911 call is 10 min. Now DOJ says the best is 4 min, and the worst is 1 hour. Now even 4 min is a long time and the average interaction time between a criminal and their victim is 90 sec. The police are not your bodyguards, they usually arrive after the fact and you are on your own until they arrive. Yes, I know those that support strict firearms laws can always produce stories and data that support their belief just as I and others can produce stories and data that support our side of the issue. It is totally unproductive to continue the idea, we will not give in and neither will the anit-gun group.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well the average wait time for the police to respond to a 911 call is 10 min. Now DOJ says the best is 4 min, and the worst is 1 hour. Now even 4 min is a long time and the average interaction time between a criminal and their victim is 90 sec. The police are not your bodyguards, they usually arrive after the fact and you are on your own until they arrive. Yes, I know those that support strict firearms laws can always produce stories and data that support their belief just as I and others can produce stories and data that support our side of the issue. It is totally unproductive to continue the idea, we will not give in and neither will the anit-gun group.

The reason why we support data in this area is because it tells at least part of what's going on here. And gee, esmith, I've seen you post data, so your excuse above rings quite hollow.

My opinion is based not only on data but also on what every single law-enforcement officer has stated in my political science classes, and there were many of them. However, I do agree that there are some conditions (such as having no law enforcement in a given area) whereas having a gun may be handy and necessary.

But in most cases, the stats don't lie-- if you keep a loaded gun in your house, you put you and your family in great risk, with there being a far greater chance an innocent member of your family may be killed.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The reason why we support data in this area is because it tells at least part of what's going on here. And gee, esmith, I've seen you post data, so your excuse above rings quite hollow.

My opinion is based not only on data but also on what every single law-enforcement officer has stated in my political science classes, and there were many of them. However, I do agree that there are some conditions (such as having no law enforcement in a given area) whereas having a gun may be handy and necessary.

But in most cases, the stats don't lie-- if you keep a loaded gun in your house, you put you and your family in great risk, with there being a far greater chance an innocent member of your family may be killed.
Unsourced statistics never lie.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
We have had lots'o new gun control laws over the years.
A problem is that neither side is happy with them.
Also by definition criminals don't follow law.

Therefore, these laws only affect law abiding citizens whom want to exercise their 2nd amendment rights.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Two large American studies found that if one keeps a loaded gun in their home, the chances are roughly 20 times greater that they or a member of their family versus the intruder will get killed.

OTOH, what do the police and FBI recommend? First is preventative-- make our house less likely to be broken into to begin with. Second, call 911.

Will either of these two always work? Of course not, but the stats indicate that they work better than playing Rambo.
At least the police can write the reports after your whole family is dead.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
The reason why we support data in this area is because it tells at least part of what's going on here. And gee, esmith, I've seen you post data, so your excuse above rings quite hollow.

My opinion is based not only on data but also on what every single law-enforcement officer has stated in my political science classes, and there were many of them. However, I do agree that there are some conditions (such as having no law enforcement in a given area) whereas having a gun may be handy and necessary.

But in most cases, the stats don't lie-- if you keep a loaded gun in your house, you put you and your family in great risk, with there being a far greater chance an innocent member of your family may be killed.
The stats also says that a gun is used in self defense more than 1 million times a year. Not necessarily fired, but used.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Also by definition criminals don't follow law.

Therefore, these laws only affect law abiding citizens whom want to exercise their 2nd amendment rights.

Doesn't affect me.....I've haven't had a problem with gun laws. Then again...I'm not a criminal/felon....:sad:
 
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