Gun Control

[Aasimar]

Cool. Why not start a new thread when you're ready? I can pass on plenty about Switzerland too, we spend a good bit of time there.

Heyas, this thread got started in another thread which you can find here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...t-kind-statement-shopping-mall-murderers.html

But It is veering away from the OP and turning into a debate about Gun Control, so I figured I'd move it here. This thread is basically to discuss your views on Gun Control, more specifically the U.S. Constitutional right to bear arms but also other countries policies on firearms and how effective, unaffective different methods can be. In my own opinion, the right to bear arms is quite important and removing guns from people is treating the symptom and not the problem. I guess I'll throw down some little factoids to get this started:

Amendment II (U.S. Bill of Rights)

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Though I think that's pretty obviously saying that people can have arms, many people take different views, so we can discuss that.

I don't want to make this post ridiculously lengthy, so I'll post some relevent links

United States vs. Jack Miller
United States v. Miller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

George Lewis vs. United States
LEWIS v. UNITED STATES.

Worldwide Homicide Rates with Firearms
Gun violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, guns. Where do you stand and why?

 

[sandandfoam]

So, guns. Where do you stand and why?

This country has an unarmed police force. Private gun ownership is uncommon. I think these two factors benefit our society.

 

[davidishere]

Only police officer should be able to have guns. Otherwise if a person with the intention of murder or another crime had the ability to obtain guns with ease, it will make their cause easier to achieve.

 

[sandandfoam]

Regarding the Swiss issuing arms to their citizens, they have a citizen army. They don't pass around guns. Military weapons are tightly controlled,you can't just head for the woods with your army gun.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What ever any bill of rights may say, I can see no sense in permitting civilians to carry arms.
I would make the punishment for carrying arms of any sort, immediate and severe.
IF they are carried whilst committing a crime also, immediate, and added to a double sentence normal for the crime.

By immediate I mean any one found in possession of arms either on them in their vehicle or at home, should go straight to jail, with out the option of bail, and tried from there.

A tough law like that would soon remove most arms from circulation.

 

[Aasimar]

Not to try to sound like the old wise man who can trounce all other viewpoints with a clever phrase, but "In the land where guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

 

[michel]

What ever any bill of rights may say, I can see no sense in permitting civilians to carry arms.
I would make the punishment for carrying arms of any sort, immediate and severe.
IF they are carried whilst committing a crime also, immediate, and added to a double sentence normal for the crime.

By immediate I mean any one found in possession of arms either on them in their vehicle or at home, should go straight to jail, with out the option of bail, and tried from there.

A tough law like that would soon remove most arms from circulation.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not to try to sound like the old wise man who can trounce all other viewpoints with a clever phrase, but "In the land where guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

True ... but now most deaths are caused by people who own guns under the law.
we still have a few people killed by guns in the UK ... but they are very few and far between... and most are west Indian gang members against each other, they are about the only major group that carries Guns as a norm here.

The advantage of the Idea of an immediate incarceration would introduce a new element of fear for the criminal... as now they can be held on bail for years, still active as criminals. They can even argue a gun found at home is legal.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Passing more laws does not solve the problem of people who have already broken hundreds of laws. Will one more law change anything? Punishment does little either when a person plans on killing themselves.

My only regret about the mall shooting this week is that someone did not have a gun available to end the shooting spree quickly.

 

[Reverend Rick]

This country has an unarmed police force. Private gun ownership is uncommon. I think these two factors benefit our society.

Australia outlawed guns and home invasions went on a rampage in their country.

People who dislike guns fail to understand that it is not having a gun that makes you safe, it is the fact that you MIGHT have a gun that keeps you safer.

 

[sandandfoam]

Australia outlawed guns and home invasions went on a rampage in their country.

People who dislike guns fail to understand that it is not having a gun that makes you safe, it is the fact that you MIGHT have a gun that keeps you safer.

Look at the murder rate in Ireland v USA

 

[Zephyr]

Look at the murder rate in Ireland v USA

There are a lot more factors that can go into murder rates other than gun ownership.

If someone is going to shoot somebody, they probably don't give a damn whether or not the gun they use is legal. I'd much rather be able to defend myself than be a sitting duck.

Tell me, how many shootings do you hear of that happen at gun shows?

 

[Random]

This country has an unarmed police force. Private gun ownership is uncommon. I think these two factors benefit our society.

Except if you live in Limerick...

 

[Aasimar]

Passing more laws does not solve the problem of people who have already broken hundreds of laws. Will one more law change anything? Punishment does little either when a person plans on killing themselves.

My only regret about the mall shooting this week is that someone did not have a gun available to end the shooting spree quickly.

/agree

 

[Ozzie]

Australia outlawed guns and home invasions went on a rampage in their country.

Source?

People who dislike guns fail to understand that it is not having a gun that makes you safe, it is the fact that you MIGHT have a gun that keeps you safer.

Bunkum.

 

[PureX]

I believe that every citizen of the United States has a right to own and carry a firearm, just as every citizen has a right to own and drive a car, helicopter, airplane, and other similar machines. These are rights that we have by virtue of our existence, they are NOT privileges to be handed out by politicians.

However, because the operation of such machines represent a significant threat of bodily harm to other citizens if used improperly, the government has an obligation to manage the use of such dangerous machines. A four-year-old child has the right to drive an automobile. But he doesn't have the ability to drive it safely. Therefor, the government must manage and regulate automobile use for the safety of other citizens. And the same is true of firearms.

The government should manage firearms by imposing mandatory testing and licensing. In the case of hand guns, these should be the same courses and tests that police officers must pass to ensure that they can use such weapons safely among the general citizenry. In the case of long guns these could be somewhat less stringent. And in the case of military weapons, such as automatic rifles and pistols, these should be completely banned to the general public, as they have no positive purpose, there. The only people who want such weapons are exactly the people who should not be allowed to have them, anyway.

And because the misuse of these machines is so commonplace and dangerous to the citizenry, very tough consequences should be put in place to help curb such misuse.

 

[McBell]

I believe that every citizen of the United States has a right to own and carry a firearm, just as every citizen has a right to own and drive a car, helicopter, airplane, and other similar machines. These are rights that we have by virtue of our existence, they are NOT privileges to be handed out by politicians.

I disagree.
Driving a car, plane, helicopter, etc. are not rights.
They are privileges that must be earned.

Know anyone who could not get their drivers license because they failed the test?

These privileges can also be taken away.
Know anyone who has lost their license?

Not everyone has the "right" to carry a concealed weapon.
Not everyone has the "right" to own a hand gun.

 

[Mister Emu]

If someone is trying to kill me, I'd much rather have a gun than another weapon...

 

[Reverend Rick]

People like to say we are a free society. They will get all excited if you tell them they are not free.

When you look upon a true free individual, it scares the hell out of people.

A truly free individual does not depend on receiving a check from the federal government, the state, or an employer to live their life. They go where ever they like, do exactly as they please and answer to no one.

 

[PureX]

I disagree.
Driving a car, plane, helicopter, etc. are not rights.
They are privileges that must be earned.

Know anyone who could not get their drivers license because they failed the test?

These privileges can also be taken away.
Know anyone who has lost their license?

Not everyone has the "right" to carry a concealed weapon.
Not everyone has the "right" to own a hand gun.

I believe it's very dangerous to view our rights as privileges. Yes, we can lose our right to do something through our inability to exercise that right with proper regard to the rights and safety of others, but this does not make those rights a special privilege handed to us by our rulers.

Our political leaders are OUR SERVANTS. They have the power to manage and control the exercise of some of our rights and freedoms because WE ASSIGNED THAT TASK TO THEM, not because it is theirs inherently. And I believe it's extremely important that we not allow them to imagine that they possess some special power that allows them to dictate to us who has the right to do what and who does not. That's just begging for the abuse of power.