Gun Control

[Mathematician]

I believe in gun ownership. I also believe in gun control. It's an issue for the states and local city governments to decide.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I believe it's very dangerous to view our rights as privileges. Yes, we can lose our right to do something through our inability to exercise that right with proper regard to the rights and safety of others, but this does not make those rights a special privilege handed to us by our rulers.

Our political leaders are OUR SERVANTS. They have the power to manage and control the exercise of some of our rights and freedoms because WE ASSIGNED THAT TASK TO THEM, not because it is theirs inherently. And I believe it's extremely important that we not allow them to imagine that they possess some special power that allows them to dictate to us who has the right to do what and who does not. That's just begging for the abuse of power.

The Genie is out of the bottle my friend.

 

[PureX]

People like to say we are a free society. They will get all excited if you tell them they are not free.

When you look upon a true free individual, it scares the hell out of people.

A truly free individual does not depend on receiving a check from the federal government, the state, or an employer to live their life. They go where ever they like, do exactly as they please and answer to no one.

Criminals behave much the same way.

"Freedom" is an illusion. No human being is totally free. Not even close. And almost all human beings on Earth choose to live in societies with other human beings, which then requires them to limit their freedoms even more. In the end, the best we can ever hope for is an equal balance between our freedom and the freedoms of those we live among and with. The fantasy of the lone cowboy, who goes and does whatever he likes is just that - a fantasy. No such person exists, at least not in any human society.

And I will remind you, too, than no human being gains his/her livelihood apart from the aid of their human society, either. Human beings live and work in collectives, and as participants in maintaining the collective well-being. No member of that collective gains any form of livelihood alone. They are all dependent upon each other. And that goes for you as much as anyone.

 

[Reverend Rick]

that goes for you as much as anyone.

I have never thought for one moment in my life, that I was a totally free individual.

I am totally dependant upon others just like everyone else.

I do believe however, in an apocalyptic situation, I have the ability to be totally free for a very short duration of my life. I pray that day never comes.

 

[PureX]

Sorry, I didn't mean to preach, it's just that I get so tired of that republican fantasy of some Darwinesque wild west economic system where real men do it all by themselves and so can happily ignore any responsibility to their fellow citizens.

 

[McBell]

I believe it's very dangerous to view our rights as privileges. Yes, we can lose our right to do something through our inability to exercise that right with proper regard to the rights and safety of others, but this does not make those rights a special privilege handed to us by our rulers.

I believe it is more dangerous to think that mere privileges are rights.
If you fail the driving test you have not earned the privilege to drive.
hell your drivers license does not even belong to you, it belongs to the state that issued it.

If you caught drinking and driving they take away your driving privileges, after the tenth or twentieth time anyway.

Our political leaders are OUR SERVANTS. They have the power to manage and control the exercise of some of our rights and freedoms because WE ASSIGNED THAT TASK TO THEM, not because it is theirs inherently. And I believe it's extremely important that we not allow them to imagine that they possess some special power that allows them to dictate to us who has the right to do what and who does not. That's just begging for the abuse of power.

To late.
Of course there are those who say that it never was the way it is described on paper.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Criminals don't care about laws, because they're criminals. Criminals will always be able to get guns. Just like they're able to get illegal drugs. The only people who would be hurt by a law that makes private gun ownership illegal are the everyday citizens. Because they would no longer be able to defend themselves from criminals who will always be able to obtain weapons.

I don't know if this was covered in the other thread or not, but what if one or two people nearby that shooter in the shopping mall had also had guns with them? Assuming that they had heard the first shots fired and were within range of the killer, it would have taken only a few seconds to whip out a gun and shoot the killer, resulting in a smaller amount of deaths. Legal gun ownership is important to the safety of all. I personally wish more people had gun ownership and concealed carry licenses.

 

[PureX]

Criminals don't care about laws, because they're criminals. Criminals will always be able to get guns. Just like they're able to get illegal drugs. The only people who would be hurt by a law that makes private gun ownership illegal are the everyday citizens. Because they would no longer be able to defend themselves from criminals who will always be able to obtain weapons.

I don't know if this was covered in the other thread or not, but what if one or two people nearby that shooter in the shopping mall had also had guns with them? Assuming that they had heard the first shots fired and were within range of the killer, it would have taken only a few seconds to whip out a gun and shoot the killer, resulting in a smaller amount of deaths. Legal gun ownership is important to the safety of all. I personally wish more people had gun ownership and concealed carry licenses.

Except that this almost never happens.

The vast majority of people who are killed by hand guns KNOW their killer, and the vast majority of people who kill other people with hand guns don't kill strangers in malls, they kill their friends, family members, or lovers in a drunken or drug induced fit of stupidity. This happens because guns are routinely sold to unstable people who cannot own or handle them safely.

The goal of gun oversight by civil authorities should not be to keep guns out of the hands of citizens, it should be to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals and idiots. I agree that it's difficult to keep guns out of the hands of a determined criminal, but it's not really all that difficult to keep them out of the hands of idiots. And it's the idiots who are doing the vast majority of the killing, NOT the determined criminals.

Gun control should first and foremost be aimed toward this goal: keeping guns out of the hands of people who are not able to own and handle them safely and appropriately. Once we stop with all the wild exaggerations and misdirection regarding gun control, we can begin to establish procedures that will effect our desired common goal.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Except that this almost never happens.

The vast majority of people who are killed by hand guns KNOW their killer, and the vast majority of people who kill other people with hand guns don't kill strangers in malls, they kill their friends, family members, or lovers in a drunken or drug induced fit of stupidity. This happens because guns are routinely sold to unstable people who cannot own or handle them safely.

The goal of gun oversight by civil authorities should not be to keep guns out of the hands of citizens, it should be to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals and idiots. I agree that it's difficult to keep guns out of the hands of a determined criminal, but it's not really all that difficult to keep them out of the hands of idiots. And it's the idiots who are doing the vast majority of the killing, NOT the determined criminals.

Gun control should first and foremost be aimed toward this goal: keeping guns out of the hands of people who are not able to own and handle them safely and appropriately. Once we stop with all the wild exaggerations and misdirection regarding gun control, we can begin to establish procedures that will effect our desired common goal.

You're right (though we do need to keep in mind that people are also murdered with knives, baseball bats, poison, and everything else). I DO think that there should be stricter rules for getting the licenses needed to purchase, handle, and carry a gun. Perhaps a checking-up on mental history/concerns, and criminal background on people when they go to get the licenses.

I just know that we cannot take guns out of the hands of responsible, knowledgable citizens.

 

[Aasimar]

I disagree.
Driving a car, plane, helicopter, etc. are not rights.
They are privileges that must be earned.

Know anyone who could not get their drivers license because they failed the test?

These privileges can also be taken away.
Know anyone who has lost their license?

Not everyone has the "right" to carry a concealed weapon.
Not everyone has the "right" to own a hand gun.

You realize the whole idea was the government Cannot take away your ability to defend yourself from the government. The government can take away your license to drive. Though owning a gun is not a license to use it on people. It's kind of a weird comparison, because You can own a car without a license, you just need a license to drive it. And in order to be certified to use a gun on a person, you must go through much training (Police, military, etc.) and even then should you use the gun, there will be an extensive investigation as to whether or not it was appropriate. It's not like people use their gun every day to kill people (I'm talking individuals, not statistically), it's an exceedingly rare event, if you do it once in your life you're in the extreme minority. So you can own a car and be unlicensed but if you drive without one you have to come up with a good reason why you did in court or be punished. Same with a gun.

 

[Reverend Rick]

it's the idiots who are doing the vast majority of the killing, NOT the determined criminals.

Quote please.

Once we stop with all the wild exaggerations and misdirection regarding gun control, we can begin to establish procedures that will effect our desired common goal.

Uh huh, have another drink of kool-aid.

What do you need an assault rifle for?

Do you really need high capacity weapons?

Semi Auto's are unnecessary.

Revolvers are semi automatic. By the way, we need that 22 your grandfather left you in his will.

Handguns are dangerous, ban them all.

Rifles are dangerous, ban them all.

All you really need is a shot gun anyway.

Sorry Son, I have to take the shotguns now.

GUN CONTROL MEANS BEING ABLE TO HIT YOUR TARGET!

 

[McBell]

You realize the whole idea was the government Cannot take away your ability to defend yourself from the government. The government can take away your license to drive. Though owning a gun is not a license to use it on people. It's kind of a weird comparison, because You can own a car without a license, you just need a license to drive it. And in order to be certified to use a gun on a person, you must go through much training (Police, military, etc.) and even then should you use the gun, there will be an extensive investigation as to whether or not it was appropriate. It's not like people use their gun every day to kill people (I'm talking individuals, not statistically), it's an exceedingly rare event, if you do it once in your life you're in the extreme minority. So you can own a car and be unlicensed but if you drive without one you have to come up with a good reason why you did in court or be punished. Same with a gun.

I agree with you.
The thing is,
I was not the one attempting to go down the 'driving is a privilege' road.

 

[astarath]

What's the point of owning a hammer if you dont intend to build anything? Just in case something may break some day?
Obviously you've broken through my subtle metaphor but let's go there shall we?

 

[Aasimar]

What's the point of owning a hammer if you dont intend to build anything? Just in case something may break some day?
Obviously you've broken through my subtle metaphor but let's go there shall we?

There's tons of things we have we don't intend to use. I have a fire alarm in my house, I don't intend to light my house on fire so I can use it. But it's nice to have it in case I need it. I don't see the parallel really, do you own a spare tire? Surely you don't intend to pop your tires today, yet a spare tire is a good idea. It's a "Just in case" and not a planned event.

 

[PureX]

You realize the whole idea was the government Cannot take away your ability to defend yourself from the government. The government can take away your license to drive. Though owning a gun is not a license to use it on people. It's kind of a weird comparison, because You can own a car without a license, you just need a license to drive it. And in order to be certified to use a gun on a person, you must go through much training (Police, military, etc.) and even then should you use the gun, there will be an extensive investigation as to whether or not it was appropriate. It's not like people use their gun every day to kill people (I'm talking individuals, not statistically), it's an exceedingly rare event, if you do it once in your life you're in the extreme minority. So you can own a car and be unlicensed but if you drive without one you have to come up with a good reason why you did in court or be punished. Same with a gun.

In the case of guns, though, it's not just the carrying of them, but the owning of them that causes the problem. They are just too easy to pick up and use when under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or emotional extremes. And this is how most people are killed by guns. It's not enough to stop drunks and drug addicts and emotionally unstable people from carrying guns, we need to keep guns away from them at all times. That's the only way to really put a dent in needless gun violence and death in the U.S.

It is true that people can still kill each other with knives and clubs and whatnot, but such attacks are far less often deadly when perpetrated by addicts and idiots. The problem with guns is that they're very easy to use successfully, even when under the influence.

 

[Aasimar]

This is plagarised but I couldn't write it any better and it's short, I will give full credit to the author

On average, 27 Americans are killed by gun related violence every day. (10,100 firearms related homicides reported in 2005, 75% of them with handguns.) There were 42,300 traffic fatalities in the US during that same year, or about 116 per day.
There are 70 million handguns in the US, and roughly 190 million passenger vehicles.
About 1 in 9,200 handguns is involved in a homicide. About 1 in 4,500 single passenger automobiles are involved in a fatality. Now, you can make an argument that the average time of use between fatalities is lower with guns, because you can't use the gun to pick up the kids from soccer practice...but the point of fact is that a higher percentage of automobiles will be involved in an auto accident than guns will. Furthermore, when you compare the rate of injury, about 1 in 5,600 firearms is involved in an injury, and 1 in 2,300 automobiles are. This means that your car is roughly 2.5x as lethal as a firearm.



- Ken Burnside Debate: Yes side - The murder of NFLs Sean Taylor: New icon for gun control? - People in the News - Helium - by Ken Burnside

As he put it later, it's time we stopped blaming the tool and start blaming the hands that wield it.

 

[sandandfoam]

Why do you want to own a gun?

 

[Aasimar]

Why do you want to own a gun?

I don't want a gun actually. But the I like the option to own one. I may pick one up in the future, especially if I ever have kids. If for no other reason then to properly teach them what it is, how it works, and what not to do with it.

 

[sandandfoam]

I don't want a gun actually. But the I like the option to own one. I may pick one up in the future, especially if I ever have kids. If for no other reason then to properly teach them what it is, how it works, and what not to do with it.

Thanks for the answer but it's still not clear to me, why might you want one, why might you want to teach your kids about one?

 

[Aasimar]

Thanks for the answer but it's still not clear to me, why might you want one, why might you want to teach your kids about one?

Okay, I might want a gun if I lived in a rough neighborhood. Or during wartime. Or for hunting. Or skeet shooting. I'd like to able to defend myself if the country declares martial law and decides to round me up for an interrogation (believe it or not I will not automatically agree with my government, and should they go to far I would defend myself. I doubt it will happen but it's a possibility). There are tons of reasons I could think of to have a gun. And I would want to teach my kids about them because they exist. Guns are real, they are out there, they can kill you, and ignorance will not save them from reality. I'd feel much better knowing my kids understood guns and how to handle them properly then if they didn't and perhaps found one in a friends parent's closet one day while playing.

But most of all I prefer to be responsible for my own welfare. Ultimately I am the one who is held accountable by me in regards to my safety. I don't allow others to make that judgment call for me whenever possible.