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Guns: Why Not Non-Concealed Carry?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
But is it non-existent?
No, but it's low enough that carrying a weapon for protection is considered unreasonable unless you're in polar bear country... and open carry doesn't seem to create any extra issues with the bears.

Whoa, I always knew Canada had a very small population, but I did not realize just how small till I just looked it up, 34M!? In the second largest country on the planet?
About half of that is north of the tree line, where it's cold, expensive to live, and there are logistical problems getting stuff there.

As for the rest, a lot of it is the Canadian Shield: rock that's expensive to build on where a well wouldn't give you water no matter how deep you drill.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Are people who wear helmets when riding their bike, or wear a seat belt when driving their car, keep a first-aid kit handy, or keep a fire extinguisher in their home paranoid? People don't do these things expecting to be in an accident or have a fire, yet no one with any sense would suggest that these cautionary practices are unreasonable.

As for "**** society", yes it is true that the U.S. isn't a quaint little hobbit island. It is large, complex, and culturally, socially, economically diverse.

How likely is it that you are going to carry a Fire extinguisher in your belt just in case you see a fire,a Gun in your belt or jacket however as a precaution gets used whether theres a fire or not as can be seen in this link Chart: The U.S. has far more gun-related killings than any other developed country

Of course our little island is tiny in comparison to the USA,carrying a gun here is illegal so its no suprise you are 20 times more likely to be shot at than i am,and BTW,you do know Hobbits aren't real right :p.
 

Wirey

Fartist
So you are telling me that violent crime is non-existent in Canada?


There's less. If you have a gun outside and you're not hunting, we take it from you. Plus, we don't live in constant fear of the government/China/aliens/minorities/terrorists/insert other news media fear mongered non-threat here that you guys do.
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
There's less. If you have a gun outside and you're not hunting, we take it from you. Plus, we don't live in constant fear of the government/China/aliens/minorities/terrorists/insert other news media fear mongered non-threat here that you guys do.
We live in constant fear of that stuff? No one ever told me that.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
There's less. If you have a gun outside and you're not hunting, we take it from you. Plus, we don't live in constant fear of the government/China/aliens/minorities/terrorists/insert other news media fear mongered non-threat here that you guys do.

Again, do people who wear seat belts live in constant fear of automobile accidents?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Let's say that in either case, the person with the cylinder or firearm has no malicious intent and is meeting the bare requirements of the law. Which do you think poses a greater risk to the people around it?

The cylinders of course. Guns require someone to take the safety off and pull the trigger, while the tanks can explode due to accidental rupturing, excess heat, flame, faulty valves, etc.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The cylinders of course. Guns require someone to take the safety off and pull the trigger, while the tanks can explode due to accidental rupturing, excess heat, flame, faulty valves, etc.

Remember what I said earlier: we're assuming that in both cases, the bare minimum requirements of the law are met. Cylinder owners are required to inspect their cylinders at regular intervals to check for things like faulty valves, and proper storage and handling addresses the risk of accidental rupturing.

As for excess heat and flame, where would that be coming from, exactly?

And are CCW holders required to keep the safety on when carrying?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What do you need a seat belt, fire extinguisher or first-aid kit for?

Let's keep our logic consistent.

If we're going for consistency, then I'm sure that you can give us some cases where a bystander was accidentally killed by a seat belt, fire extinguisher or first aid kit.

(besides halon extinguishers, I mean. I've already acknowledged that they're hazardous, and that it would be a bad idea for a person to have one for general household use)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You should all move to Canada. You don't need a gun to feel safe walking outdoors. Cuts down on pointless firearm spending.
If we all moved there, you guyz would be only about 10% of the population.
You'd be saddled with our cultures, & now you'd need guns too.
Your best bet is to portray your country as a frozen land which is barren of sex, booze, porn, BBQ & palm trees.
Oh, wait....it is exactly that!
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I would rather know who is carrying a gun, and it seems suspicious to be carrying it hidden.

If I was to carry a gun. (which I do not want to have guns as a part of my life) I would not want it to be in the open. I would never advertise I have one. Like putting an nra sticker on my car. It seems to me that you give away your advantage by others knowing you have a gun. If the bad guy knows you have a gun you lose the element of surprise.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If I was to carry a gun. (which I do not want to have guns as a part of my life) I would not want it to be in the open. I would never advertise I have one. Like putting an nra sticker on my car. It seems to me that you give away your advantage by others knowing you have a gun. If the bad guy knows you have a gun you lose the element of surprise.

One of the principles that was emphasized in my martial arts training is projecting an air of strength and capability. Any physical confrontation poses a risk to you, so if you can get a potential attacker to think "there's someone I don't want to mess with", then you've won without any risk to yourself at all.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Before I would ever carry a gun I would want to be confident that I would be able to handle the gun and myself should it come to the point where I felt I needed to use it in self defense. I hope everyone who carries feels the same way.

If I am sufficiently trained in the use of a firearm, open carry would be the only way I would want to go for many reasons. First, I feel like concealing a gun is not fair to the people around me - they would not be fully informed of the weapons on the scene if something were to happen.

Second, I would want to have clear and practiced access to the weapon, not be fumbling into my pocket, coat or purse if it is needed.

Third, if I can't protect and effectively use an openly carried weapon, then I also am not prepared to protect and effectively use a concealed weapon. The difference would only be for a matter of seconds, and really is only of importance to those who are not proficient in the use of firearms.

It actually does scare me to think that many people are carrying guns but the only advantage they have is the element of surprise.

If you have a gun, I want you to be much better at protecting and using it than the crazy person or criminal next to you.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Before I would ever carry a gun I would want to be confident that I would be able to handle the gun and myself should it come to the point where I felt I needed to use it in self defense. I hope everyone who carries feels the same way.
This is how it should be.

If I am sufficiently trained in the use of a firearm, open carry would be the only way I would want to go for many reasons. First, I feel like concealing a gun is not fair to the people around me - they would not be fully informed of the weapons on the scene if something were to happen.
You might change your mind if you live in an area where you'd have the cops called whenever you appear in public, & have them regularly detain you or worse.
Having a legal right to do something doesn't mean they'll allow it. It's nice that you want those around to be fully informed of your having a gun, but remember
that no good deed goes unpunished.

Second, I would want to have clear and practiced access to the weapon, not be fumbling into my pocket, coat or purse if it is needed.
You can train to carry in such a fashion that there will be no fumbling.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
This is how it should be.
:yes:


You might change your mind if you live in an area where you'd have the cops called whenever you appear in public, & have them regularly detain you or worse.
Having a legal right to do something doesn't mean they'll allow it. It's nice that you want those around to be fully informed of your having a gun, but remember
that no good deed goes unpunished.
I still maintain that this is a cultural/sociological effect that would change if open carry were the only legal way to go. I think even the police would change their view and like it better and would feel confident that those with open carry are proficient and trustworthy. The devil you know is preferable to the devil you don't.

You can train to carry in such a fashion that there will be no fumbling.
I would agree this is possible, but unnecessary for everyday citizens.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Before I would ever carry a gun I would want to be confident that I would be able to handle the gun and myself should it come to the point where I felt I needed to use it in self defense. I hope everyone who carries feels the same way.

I'll go one further. I happen to know a few people who carry who think they are perfectly able to handle a gun and I disagree. I don't think knowing how to shoot a paper target at a range is sufficient, even if you are a great shot. Shooting under duress is a different ballgame. One time I was training with law enforcement there was an officer there who served high risk warrants. He had a pretty fancy carry rig, but had never practiced with it (he had gotten it a few months earlier, and they don't do quals very often). When we were working on CQB stuff, or shooting on the move, he couldn't get his weapon out most of the time.

There are lots of qualified people who carry guns, and lots of them have been around guns most of their lives. But there are far too many who don't know what they are doing and (even worse) don't know that they don't know what they are doing.

First, I feel like concealing a gun is not fair to the people around me - they would not be fully informed of the weapons on the scene if something were to happen.

I'm still not sure about this, and I'm glad of the thread. I agree with a lot of the objections Reverend Rick had. However, I think some of the problems could be addressed. Also, I do think that if more people who carried did so openly it might actually prevent some incidents from ever happening. And I think the point about the rights of others to know may have some merit.

Second, I would want to have clear and practiced access to the weapon, not be fumbling into my pocket, coat or purse if it is needed.
Extremely important and too often not a concern to people who carry.

EDIT: just to be clear, I don't mean that concealed carry entails fumbling. It is (as Revoltingest stated) perfectly possible to train so that you can access your concealed weapon without fumbling, and perfectly possible to carry openly and be unable to retrieve it.

Third, if I can't protect and effectively use an openly carried weapon, then I also am not prepared to protect and effectively use a concealed weapon. The difference would only be for a matter of seconds, and really is only of importance to those who are not proficient in the use of firearms.

This is not exactly true. For one thing, the difference of seconds can be one of life or death. More importantly, what Rev. Rick said about disarms is true, and would be a problem for many if they were required to carry openly. It is much easier for an assailant to prevent you from accessing your weapon or to take it away if they can see it. Even apart from the element of suprise this is true. To carry concealed, one has to train to be able to effectively access, present, and control their use of (i.e., not fire due to nerves, and fire accurately if it comes to that) their weapon. To carry openly, one has to train to do all that and to deal with those who reach for their gun when holstered, those who grab it (holstered or not), those who grab their arm, etc. A lot more unarmed techniques become important when carrying openly.
It actually does scare me to think that many people are carrying guns but the only advantage they have is the element of surprise.

If you have a gun, I want you to be much better at protecting and using it than the crazy person or criminal next to you.
Absolutely.
 
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