Gurdjief and the Forth Way

[Mr. Cage]

Readers may wish to think twice before approaching Robert E Burton's group "The Fellowship Of Friends". There are rumours that it is a cult: Fellowship of Friends

There is no link to us from this fellowship you speak of sir.

However theres no need to frett my friends. We in the School of the Forth Way are an organized school of Intelectual Occult Studies. Our goal and aim is the Self. However as we dont exceed in huge numbers we make up for it exceeding in progress.

Again:

im a card carrying member myself, been affiliated with the school for almost a decade. I encourage that those here who are attuned and ready to take the next step to join. Contact me for affiliation info or if you need a sponsor.

 

[Onkara]

Thank you Mr. Cage
No accusation was implied to you or your post, my post was just a note to share with fellow seekers of truth. Thanks for clarifying

Like you, having spent the good part of a decade engaged in Gurdjieff's work, there is much we learn on the way which might be offered to help others

 

[thedope]

However theres no need to frett my friends. We in the School of the Forth Way are an organized school of Intelectual Occult Studies. Our goal and aim is the Self. However as we dont exceed in huge numbers we make up for it exceeding in progress.

I was involved with a group in the 70's and it was most remarkable in the fact that it was utterly forgettable. Belonging to triple A is much more practically useful.
What do you mean by exceeding progress? What do you measure progress against. Mostly what I see is a fluency in a certain type of vernacular.

 

[Mr. Cage]

I was involved with a group in the 70's and it was most remarkable in the fact that it was utterly forgettable. Belonging to triple A is much more practically useful.
What do you mean by exceeding progress? What do you measure progress against. Mostly what I see is a fluency in a certain type of vernacular.

You would do well to research the School of the Forth way. Afterwards you might even change your name.

Yes Triple A is useful if you cant muster a dependable vehicle. To better aid you lets just think of it as Triple A for the Psyche, shall we?

"SELF PROGRESSION" to answer your question.

Does this help? If not i will provide you with a link to our sites if you are genuinely interested.

 

[thedope]

You would do well to research the School of the Forth way. Afterwards you might even change your name.

Yes Triple A is useful if you cant muster a dependable vehicle. To better aid you lets just think of it as Triple A for the Psyche, shall we?

"SELF PROGRESSION" to answer your question.

Does this help? If not i will provide you with a link to our sites if you are genuinely interested.

Actually, it doesn't at, all answer my question. Further how is an organization going to answer a question that I asked you?
How does your self progression differ from the self organizing principle of life?
How can you say what will aid me for better or worse? Do you occupy some birds eye seat on reality? Just think of these questions as triple a for the psyche shall we?

If we regard it as triple a for the psyche, does that imply that the organization is only useful if you can't function or are somehow mentally ill?

 

[Mr. Cage]

How is an organization going to answer a question that I asked you?
How does your self progression differ from the self organizing principle of life?
How can you say what will aid me for better or worse? ?

I am able to answer your questions concerning the school because i am in a position to answer you with accuracy due to my lengthy affiliation. However im curious why you would address me with such a question if your intent was to ask the school?

How do i know it may aid you? Dear sir, anything which enhances your potential and knowledge of the Self can be considered aid.

But please, if your looking for anymore info concening the school i encourage you contact my friend Karl at 415-699-3309. Seeing how im not your intended target. Thank you.

 

[thedope]

I am able to answer your questions concerning the school because i am in a position to answer you with accuracy due to my lengthy affiliation. However im curious why you would address me with such a question if your intent was to ask the school?

I don't know where you got the impression that I intended to ask the school any questions whatsoever. Be concise as you will, My question is of you, and primarily it is how is the proclaimed self progression different from the progressions of the self organizing principle of life.

How do i know it may aid you? Dear sir, anything which enhances your potential and knowledge of the Self can be considered aid.

How do know in what way my potential may be enhanced unless you know what my current potential is in relation to my extant qualities. Why would you assume any contact with a school would enhance my potential? I don't think a school is the measure of potential, it can only teach what it has learned. If you feel that your group can assist you in this matter then you should take it up with them.

I was attracted to your comment that your group experiences results from specific practice. Where are the results, what are the results? How are those results superior to simply good personal hygiene.

 

[Mr. Cage]

I don't know where you got the impression that I intended to ask the school any questions whatsoever.

Because of your prior statement, ill quote you:

. Further how is an organization going to answer a question that I asked you??

Again, please contact the school directly with the info i provided. I see this conversation is going nowhere and im ending it here. Thank you in advance for your time and cooperation concerning this matter.

 

[thedope]

Because of your prior statement, ill quote you:
Again, please contact the school directly with the info i provided. I see this conversation is going nowhere and im ending it here. Thank you in advance for your time and cooperation concerning this matter.

I posed a rhetorical question. What makes you think your group can answer questions that require personal evaluation, better than you.

You say you possess enough conditioned familiarity with the group to respond succinctly to my questions, I would think you would welcome the opportunity to learn what you teach, as you teach it, a principle that ouspensky observed.

Obviously a conversation between you and I can go nowhere if you have unilaterally decided it should end. I don't know why you are regarding this conversation as hostile to the cause of "working on oneself", when the only thing missing are your responses.
Why not test your hypothesis, the only thing that can be threatened are our illusions.

 

[Mr. Cage]

I posed a rhetorical question. What makes you think your group can answer questions that require personal evaluation, better than you.

You say you possess enough conditioned familiarity with the group to respond succinctly to my questions, I would think you would welcome the opportunity to learn what you teach, as you teach it, a principle that ouspensky observed.

Obviously a conversation between you and I can go nowhere if you have unilaterally decided it should end. I don't know why you are regarding this conversation as hostile to the cause of "working on oneself", when the only thing missing are your responses.
Why not test your hypothesis, the only thing that can be threatened are our illusions.

I would love to answer all of your questions. Of course, who doesn't enjoy dialog? I was under the impression you were looking for answers from the school and not myself. However now your stating/claiming they were only rhetorical question/s after i exposed your hypocracy in my prior post above.

So lets begin now that im aware these questions were directed toward me. (How then could they have been rhetorical?) See, theres one of my own.

How about we now take advantage of these while there are no longer answer-less questions roaming about, shall we? Try to avoid thinking of your past 70's affiliation with this nameless group you were involved in. This way we can seperate your prior predicaments and bias concerning this 70's movement and allow some room for an open mind.

Speaking of, tell me the name of this group you were involved with? I would enjoy to know.

√ Ask away sir. What exactly are you inquiring about? I looking forward to this engagement.

Please take the time to pose these questions again so i may find them on one page without having to deduce which may or may not have been rhetorical.

 

[thedope]

I would love to answer all of your questions. Of course, who doesn't enjoy dialog? I was under the impression you were looking for answers from the school and not myself. However now your stating/claiming they were only rhetorical question/s.

So lets begin now that im aware these questions were directed toward me, but if so how could they have been rhetorical?

Rhetorical as in the art of the speaker, I asked, Further how is an organization going to answer a question that I asked you?? I wasn't asking for the organization's answer.

How about we take advantage of these now while they are no longer rhetorical shall we? Try to avoid thinking of your past 70's affiliation with this nameless group you were involved in. This way we can seperate your prior predicaments and bias concerning this 70'smovement and allow some room for an open mind. Speaking of, tell me the name of this group you were involved with?

I was on the eve of being shut out so you are somewhat tardy on the decision to lean to open mindedness, however you are gracious to rescind your decision to end this conversation. I do not remember the name of the group, as I say forgettable. It was in Boulder city, Nev. My interest was peaked when you said "rest assured". I was attracted to your comment that your group experiences results from specific practice. Where are the results, what are the results? How are those results superior to simply good personal hygiene? How is the proclaimed self progression different from the progressions of the self organizing principle of life?

 

[Mr. Cage]

I was attracted to your comment that your group experiences results from specific practice.

Where are the results, what are the results? How are those results superior to simply good personal hygiene? How is the proclaimed self progression different from the progressions of the self organizing principle of life?

Where are the results? The results are attibutes that are gained through the hard won work of the individual. We achieve these goals by way of potential.

How is it superior to persional hygiene? Listen, personal hygiene has a flow chart which tells you what and how to keep your self clean and sanitary. However life does not. We are thrown curve balls which we are often unprepared for. But its how we handle the curves it what seperates us from most. Using pragmatic ways of thinking, preparing the mind for friction. Pro-active train of thought.

We find tools which aid us in becoming effective and efficient. These tools are gained by knowing the Self. Once these tools are honed, tempered and adopted they are used to further our potential. But what works for me may not work for you. Everyones tools and results vary. Its about action, progression and results. These results can be measured.

 

[thedope]

Where are the results? The results are attibutes that are gained through the hard won work of the individual. We achieve these goals by way of potential.

When you say you achieve attributes through hard work, it seems antithetical to achieving attributes by way of potential. An attribute and a goal are not the same thing unless your goal is to develop attributes. Are you saying simply that it is possible to develop skills? Can you give an example of an attribute?

How is it superior to persional hygiene? Listen, personal hygiene has a flow chart which tells you what and how to keep your self clean and sanitary.

What do you mean by flowchart? Do you mean habit. Helpful is a matter of timing.

However life does not
We are thrown curve balls which we are often unprepared for.

This seems to me a serious misconception. Effects follow attention and if you are responding, how is it you are unprepared? There are no degrees of reality in the sense that any one place is any more real than any other. Life shares a singular intent and that is to be. Knowledge is being shared. The only thing that can be threatened are illusions and we are never upset by a fact but only in the interpretation of fact.

But its how we handle the curves it what seperates us from most. Using pragmatic ways of thinking, preparing the mind for friction. Pro-active train of thought.

Seriously, I do not mean to be unkind, but this so far is proven to be a vacuous claim.

We find tools which aid us in becoming effective and efficient. These tools are gained by knowing the Self. Once these tools are honed, tempered and adopted they are used to further our potential. But what works for me may not work for you. Everyones tools and results vary. Its about action, progression and results. These results can be measured.

This is a fancy way of saying, teach yourself to play guitar. By what metric are results measured, in degrees of self satisfaction? This is an opportunity for you to demonstrate at large, your superior achievements.

 

[Mr. Cage]

When you say you achieve attributes through hard work, it seems antithetical to achieving attributes by way of potential. An attribute and a goal are not the same thing unless your goal is to develop attributes. Are you saying simply that it is possible to develop skills? Can you give an example of an attribute?

What do you mean by flowchart? Do you mean habit. Helpful is a matter of timing.


This seems to me a serious misconception. Effects follow attention and if you are responding, how is it you are unprepared? There are no degrees of reality in the sense that any one place is any more real than any other. Life shares a singular intent and that is to be. Knowledge is being shared. The only thing that can be threatened are illusions and we are never upset by a fact but only in the interpretation of fact.

Seriously, I do not mean to be unkind, but this so far is proven to be a vacuous claim.

This is a fancy way of saying, teach yourself to play guitar. By what metric are results measured, in degrees of self satisfaction? This is an opportunity for you to demonstrate at large, your superior achievements.

I found this reference in another thread and pasted it here.

Lets look at this from the beginning, shall we. Then tell me where you think you are opposed to where you want to be.

Center 1. A man in whom the moving or instictive centers predominate over the intellectual and emotional, that is, physical man.

Center 2. A man in whom the emotional center predominates over the intellectual, moving, and instictive. Emotional man.

Center 3. A man in whom the intellectual center predominates over the emotional, moving and instictive man.

In ordinary life we meet and work with these 3 catagories of man, Each one of us and everyone we know is more than likely to be either man 1,2 or 3. There are higher catagories of man, but men are not born already belonging to these higher catagories. They are all born with centers 1,2 or 3. But can reach higher catagories through schooling.

Center 4. A man is not born as such. He is the product school culture. He differs from man 1,2 and 3 by his knowledge of himself, by his understanding of his position and as it is expressed technically, by having acuired a permanent center of gravity. This last means that the idea of acquiring unity, conaciousness, and Will- that is, the idea of his development- has already become for him more important than his other interest.

It must be added to the characteristics of man 4, that his functions and centers are more balanced without work on himself, according to school principles and methods.

Center 5. Is a man who has acquired unity and Self-consciousness. He is different from ordinary because in him, one of the higher centers already works, and he has many functions and powers that ordinary man- that is, man 1,2 and 3 does not possess.

Center 6. Is a man who has aquired objective consciousness. Another higher center works in him. He possesses many more new faculties and powers, beyond the understanding of an ordinary man.

Center 7. Is a man who has attained all that a man can attain. He has a permanent "I" and free will. He can control all the states of consciousness in himself already and can not lose anything he has acquired. According to another description, he is imortal within the limits of the cosmos.

Understanding the devision of man into seven catagories is very important, for the division has very many applications in all possible ways of studying human activity. It gives, in the hands of those who understand it, a very strong and very fine instrument or tool for the definition of manifestations which, without it, are important.

 

[thedope]

Understanding the devision of man into seven catagories is very important, for the division has very many applications in all possible ways of studying human activity. It gives, in the hands of those who understand it, a very strong and very fine instrument or tool for the definition of manifestations which, without it, are important.

Models are only useful until the structures are in place.
I am familiar with the theoretical underpinnings of gurdjieff's system. I don't care to measure myself as regards that system, and I do not find it at all important. In terms of the absolute everything else is an abstraction. I am not here for a diagnostic.

Again, can you give me an example of an attribute that makes you stand out in relation to most? All you have shown me is a curious vernacular and it seems as though you are confirming that self satisfaction is the only example you can muster as a measure of success.

 

[Mr. Cage]

Again, can you give me an example of an attribute that makes you stand out in relation to most? All you have shown me is a curious vernacular and it seems as though you are confirming that self satisfaction is the only example you can muster as a measure of success.

Very well. I will share with you my own personal attributes that have been honed and adopted via the Forth Way. Lets start, shall we? Please note this is my own model and does not represent anyone elses in the school.

Curiosity: an inquiring mind.
Honesty: integrity, ethical, unbias, impartial
Self sacrifice: delay gratification
Progressiveness: initiate changes that improve
Tolerance: of others views and race
Innovativeness: apply and adapt anyones ideas
Responsibility: can be depended apon
Self correcting: admits ones faults and mistakes
Courage: risk taker and endure failure
Self confidence: good self image and self sufficient
Flexibility: can adapt to change ingenious
Productivity: personally effective and efficient
Initiative: self starter/get things done
Communication Skills: expressive verbal and written
Creativity: develop new ideas and solutions
Experimental inclination: tries new ideas and solutions
Self education: always trying to learn more
Motivation and Sensitivity: alert and moved to solve problems

ALERTNESS OF MIND AND REFLECTIVE THINKING

decisive. Evaluation. Relates ideas. Skepticism. Analyzes. Perceptive. Use imagery. Open minded. Objective. Competitive. Tactically alert. Interpreting. Conjecture. Reasoning. Forecast. Introspective.

AMBITIOUS - INDUSTRIOUS - ENERGETIC

leadership. Organized. Persistent. Aggressive. Dependable. Progressive. Think ahead. Goal oriented. task oriented. Desirious to improve. Passion for subject. Accept responsibility.

SKILLFUL QUALITY MINDED

Writing. Reading. Planning. Accuracy. Organized. Measuring. Initiative. Statistical. Meticulous. Improvising. Visualization. Typewriting. Abstracting. Generalizing. Mathematical. Communicating. Technological. Trouble shooting. Manual dexterity. Computer friendly.

COOPERTIVE AND POSITIVE ATTITUDE

Developing a good overall personality and the ability to get along with others. Great developments and improvements are usually a result of team efforts.

Tolerance. Team work. seek truth. Home work. Doesnt discriminate. Respect school. Sense of humor. Time conscious. Good self image. Respect for teacher/professor. Avoid misconceptions. Maintains discipline. Admits ignorance. Relates to others. Accepts criticism. Controls emotions.

 

[thedope]

Curiosity: an inquiring mind.

Curiouser and curiouser?

Honesty: integrity, ethical, unbias, impartial
Self sacrifice: delay gratification

How do you measure honesty, integrity, and ethics, without partiality?
Why would you delay gratification if you were unbiased toward results?
What thing of yourself do you sacrifice?

Progressiveness: initiate changes that improve

Time passes. Changes that improve what?

Tolerance: of others views and race

You have had to develop tolerance for races not your own?

innovativeness: apply and adapt anyones ideas

innovation is an ovation from within. To have as a subset, apply and adapt anyone's ideas, is antithetical to innovation and more like plagiarization

Responsibility: can be depended upon

And you can be ignored.

Self correcting: admits ones faults and mistakes

We don't know what we don't know.

Courage: risk taker and endure failue

Do you know what the fatality rate of human beings is? It is 100%, what risk, what endurance?

Self confidence: good self image and self sufficient

Do you grow or forage for your own food? Do you sequester your own energy supply?
I notice you are on the internet. The level of situational awareness of the level of self sufficiency/proficiency, shows not a good, or accurate self image.
I'll break here for a while, as there is a lot to address already.

 

[Mr. Cage]

Now you are just splitting hairs my friend. I know your not foolish because of our timely dialog. What you are trying to do is pick apart every reply i give in the hopes to deduce its validity. But this is something im no going to allow to take place.

If a system works for you it is considered valid. Ive given you your initial reply. Please take care in on your travels. I encourage you read some of the suggested books in the future. Only good can come from Self knowledge.

 

[thedope]

Now you are just splitting hairs my friend. I know your not foolish because of our timely dialog. What you are trying to do is pick apart every reply i give in the hopes to deduce its validity. But this is something im no going to allow to take place.

I will make my deductions as per my interest not per your allowance. You do not possess enough self awareness to be able to move air with my diaphragm. If I am able to pick apart what you say then the mental structure you have fashioned is not stable, nothing permanent, and I mean nothing unkind in saying this. Your list of attributes is self contradictory so I must assume the attributes come from different members. All these attributes you list are fleeting voices clamoring for self satisfaction.

They do not know each other. In just this portion of your listing there is enormous tension between concepts.Honesty: integrity, ethical, unbias, impartial
Self sacrifice: delay gratification. . If you have any permanency in you, it did not give honest consideration to these questions. Honesty in this respect meaning, consistency.

If a system works for you it is considered valid. Ive given you your initial reply. Please take care in on your travels. I encourage you read some of the suggested books in the future. Only good can come from Self knowledge.

Yes what works for an individual is valid, but your claims are not.

I encourage you to get serious.

 

[Mr. Cage]

I am able to pick apart what you say then the mental structure you have fashioned is not stable.

Of course you are going to. This is what you do...and ive come across your kind many times in the past my friend who have attempted to undermine my structure of thought. There are those who encourage their brotbers to excell using any means possible. Then there are those like you who want nothing more than to tear at the fabric of sovereignty. Its embarrassing to say the least that ive continued dialog with the likes of you. You need a role model. Lol.

You may reply but know that this conversation is over. Im not going to suffer your feeble attempts to rupture this model thats extremel effective. Its rather sad indeed.