Treks
Well-Known Member
The pic'n'mix approach MUST be used. But why do it at all? Why carry around all that baggage to be filtered through? And who says what to keep and what to ignore? It's a dangerous game to play.
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Gurus, prophets, religious leaders who led exemplary lives?
- Thread starter Satnaam
- Start date
The pic'n'mix approach MUST be used. But why do it at all? Why carry around all that baggage to be filtered through? And who says what to keep and what to ignore? It's a dangerous game to play.
?
Manu Smriti has been proven to me interpolated because of the many contradictions there. It has been mentioned in older texts, so it existed in its original form before. However, we do not "pic'n'mix" these quotes. From looking at texts like say, Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavata Purana, we can see which verses are authentic and which one were added on. But to be safe, we don't use it very much.
For me it's because anything man made is imperfect, including religions. So if a "Holy Scripture" (in ANY book/religion whatever) doesn't offer one some sort of truth, however one defines it, then one must abandon it as something from a less enlightened time than ours. But other people will have differing opinions about that.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
And Qur'an is Allah's word!
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Dear Satnaam, respect is a reciprocal thing. If someone respects my religion, I will respect him. If someone attacks my religion, I will also attack him.
Poor people were exploited in various ways at all times all over the world. What Hinduism told the poor people is what they told the rich people too. Adjust with your circumstances and find satisfaction in doing your duty well whatever be your station. That is the teaching of 'santosha' (contentment) and 'anasakti' (unattachment). I am sure sikh gurus also advocated that.
Who stops Muslims, Sikhs and Christians to abandon castes? In independent India, we have been careful about upliftment of dalits. There are a whole lot of benefits and facilities that have been constitutionally given to them. And there is a strict law against casteism. Even calling some one by caste in a derogatory way can lend a person in jail for five years. You ignore all that in your attempt to denigrate Hinduism. That is not fair. A whole lot of Sikhs get benefited by these benefits to the backward castes and scheduled castes. Now even Jats are to be included in 'Other Backward Castes'. Notified List Of OBC Castes, SC AND MINORITIES IN Punjab State - Page - 1 (69 castes notified as 'Other Backward Classes' and 39 as Scheduled castes -dalits)
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
This is something that needs understanding. Caste allowed people to continue their worship, traditions in their own way. Nobody interfered. India has many regionalities and it is home to many foreign people. Some like Aryans Scythians, Kushanas, Huns and perhaps some Parthians and Greek also assimilated in to Hinduism. Some did not assimilate (Jews, Chrisians, Muslims, Zoroastrians). Hinduism never asked them to confirm to a common culture and did not interfere in marriages. It is not a melting pot like US where not being like other Americans is not liked. India and Hinduism is like a stained-glass window, where all were allowed to retain their own colors.
And kindly remember that Hindus are guided by a shudra sage, VedaVyasa and Vidura was considered the wisest of people. The list of shudra sages in Hinduism is very long in North and well as South India. And the bani of some of them is included in the 'Adi Granth' also. A partial list of such saints is given here: List of Ŝudra Hindu saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That is not true. My grandfather wrote 'Vishweshwara Smriti' in 1947 (8000 verses). Read about it here: Readings from a 20th Century Hindu Law Book (Smriti) [Archive] - Secular Café
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
That should put the seal on all Smriti, those capable can and do write new ones for their community. Hopefully people who claim that Manu Smriti is scriptures can now understand the meaning of Smriti.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
A Guru is not a saint, or do-gooder, its nothing to do with what he does, its all to do with what he revels, he is an enlightened being, he doesn't see himself as the mind body organism, so whatever the body does has nothing to do with the Guru. As long as we are believing we are separate, we will judge the Guru by his actions, but his actions are not the Guru, he can be laying in the gutter drunk, and he still is the Guru, its the one who is judging him for being in the gutter that is still asleep and ignorant.
Satnaam
Conquer your mind
There are too many posts to reply tbh but I'll only reply to Aupmanyav who is hinting that he is in a position to attack Sikhi. Lets debate, you quote SGGS and I'll quote from your scriptures, lets see who gives up first on proving that the others' religion scriptures promote intolerance, flawed rituals and god knows what.
Aupmanyav, are you slow or something? Just like some Sikhs bow down to idols which is not allowed in Sikhi, there are others who discriminate based on caste too. Just like idol worship, caste has no basis in Sikhi (theology) because you couldn't post a single verse from my holy Guru Granth Sahib that casteism is practised in Sikhi.
Contrary to that, I DID quote you the manu smriti, first by proving its importance within Hinduism (don't play the 'hinduism is a large school blabla game with me) and then quoting one of its chapters and how it encourages discriminating upon caste and gives corporal punishments to shudras while giving higher castes simple fines for the same crime.
The day Sikhs get out of the shadow of the great Hindu ocean (idol worship, caste, ...) only then Sikhi will flourish.
And don't talk about caste reservation, I don't give a f if Sikhs Hindus or Muslims benefited from it. Its a wrong practise, reservation should be on your current economical situation not your ancestors.
I challenge you, post a single verse from Guru Granth Sahib, the ONLY scripture thats held in reverence by ALL Sikh sects (thus it is unanimously accepted) which mentions caste based discrimination.
Aupmanyav, are you slow or something? Just like some Sikhs bow down to idols which is not allowed in Sikhi, there are others who discriminate based on caste too. Just like idol worship, caste has no basis in Sikhi (theology) because you couldn't post a single verse from my holy Guru Granth Sahib that casteism is practised in Sikhi.
Contrary to that, I DID quote you the manu smriti, first by proving its importance within Hinduism (don't play the 'hinduism is a large school blabla game with me) and then quoting one of its chapters and how it encourages discriminating upon caste and gives corporal punishments to shudras while giving higher castes simple fines for the same crime.
The day Sikhs get out of the shadow of the great Hindu ocean (idol worship, caste, ...) only then Sikhi will flourish.
And don't talk about caste reservation, I don't give a f if Sikhs Hindus or Muslims benefited from it. Its a wrong practise, reservation should be on your current economical situation not your ancestors.
I challenge you, post a single verse from Guru Granth Sahib, the ONLY scripture thats held in reverence by ALL Sikh sects (thus it is unanimously accepted) which mentions caste based discrimination.
Treks
Well-Known Member
Of course I know that caste is cast out of Sikhi. But if we're going to cherry pick, then lets.
I find it ironic that when it comes to talking about negative things, the only scripture to exist in Sikhi is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Yet there are plenty more sources of information and so-called scriptures associated with Sikhi that are used for other purposes, as it suits the individual.
Panna 861?
ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
ब्राहमणु खत्री सूद वैस चारि वरन चारि आस्रम हहि जो हरि धिआवै सो परधानु ॥
Barāhmaṇ kẖaṯrī sūḏ vais cẖār varan cẖār āsram hėh jo har ḏẖi▫āvai so parḏẖān.
There are four castes: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Soodra and Vaisya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.
ਜਿਉ ਚੰਦਨ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਿਰਡੁ ਬਪੁੜਾ ਤਿਉ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੩॥
जिउ चंदन निकटि वसै हिरडु बपुड़ा तिउ सतसंगति मिलि पतित परवाणु ॥३॥
Ji▫o cẖanḏan nikat vasai hirad bapuṛā ṯi▫o saṯsangaṯ mil paṯiṯ parvāṇ. ||3||
The poor castor oil plant, growing near the sandalwood tree, becomes fragrant; in the same way, the sinner, associating with the Saints, becomes acceptable and approved. ||3||
I find it ironic that when it comes to talking about negative things, the only scripture to exist in Sikhi is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Yet there are plenty more sources of information and so-called scriptures associated with Sikhi that are used for other purposes, as it suits the individual.
Panna 861?
ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
ब्राहमणु खत्री सूद वैस चारि वरन चारि आस्रम हहि जो हरि धिआवै सो परधानु ॥
Barāhmaṇ kẖaṯrī sūḏ vais cẖār varan cẖār āsram hėh jo har ḏẖi▫āvai so parḏẖān.
There are four castes: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Soodra and Vaisya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.
ਜਿਉ ਚੰਦਨ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਿਰਡੁ ਬਪੁੜਾ ਤਿਉ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੩॥
जिउ चंदन निकटि वसै हिरडु बपुड़ा तिउ सतसंगति मिलि पतित परवाणु ॥३॥
Ji▫o cẖanḏan nikat vasai hirad bapuṛā ṯi▫o saṯsangaṯ mil paṯiṯ parvāṇ. ||3||
The poor castor oil plant, growing near the sandalwood tree, becomes fragrant; in the same way, the sinner, associating with the Saints, becomes acceptable and approved. ||3||
Treks
Well-Known Member
Of course I jest with the above quotes. Not only is it disrespectful to the Gurbani to pick bits of it out to 'prove points', there is far more bani in SGGSJ that makes it abundantly clear that caste is another futile construct.
However that does not give anyone an excuse to be disrespectful in their dialogue with other members.
However that does not give anyone an excuse to be disrespectful in their dialogue with other members.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You are mistaken. I never attack Sikhi. I rever Sri Guru Nanak and all other sikh gurus just like I rever the Hindu sages. As far as I know, Guru Nanak has not said a word other than what is mentioned in the Upanishads. As for castes, you talk only about humans, Krishna said the wise do not see the difference even between men and animals:
"Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne, brāhmane gavi hastini;
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca, panditah sama-darśinah." Gita 5.18
Word meaning: vidyā — with education; vinaya — and gentleness; sampanne — fully equipped; brāhmane — in the brāhmin; gavi — in the cow; hastini — in the elephant; śuni — in the dog; ca — and; eva — certainly; śva-pāke — in the dog-eater (the outcaste); ca — respectively; panditah — those who are wise; sama-darśinah — who see with equal vision.
Translation: A learned and gentle brāhmin, a cow, an elephant, a dog or a dog-eater (outcaste - chandala), the knowledgeable see them all as same.
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So let me get this straight? You quote a Smriti that only a small-ish portion of Hindus accept then claim it is important in Hinduism in a general sense that justifies or rather has "instructions" for the treatment of castes or whatever, and then you turn around and ask Aup to post scripture that EVERY Sikh follows that justifies Castes? Is that not a tad hypocritical? If you want to point out Hindu beliefs that are not even held by all Hindus and claim it's important in Hinduism (and by extension, even if it's just an implied extension, important to ALL Hindus) then I don't know if you can really justify getting upset when people counteract with Sikh beliefs that are not even held by all Sikhs.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Yeah. He had 8 wives originally, but married 16000 other girls because they had no family to go to. Lord Krishna accepted them.
don't know if you believe in miracles but i think this story sounds amazing.
St. Mary of Egypt
She began her life as a young woman who followed the passions of the body, running away from her parents at age twelve for Alexandria. There she lived as a harlot for seventeen years, refusing money from the men that she copulated with, instead living by begging and spinning flax.
One day, however, she met a group of young men heading toward the sea to sail to Jerusalem for the veneration of the Holy Cross. Mary went along for the ride, seducing the men as they traveled for the fun of it. But when the group reached Jerusalem and actually went towards the church, Mary was prohibited from entering by an unseen force. After three such attempts, she remained outside on the church patio, where she looked up and saw an icon of the Theotokos. She began to weep and prayed with all her might that the Theotokos might allow her to see the True Cross; afterwards, she promised, she would renounce her worldly desires and go wherever the Theotokos may lead her.
After this heart-felt conversion at the doors of the church, she fled into the desert to live as an ascetic. She survived for years on only three loaves of bread and thereafter on scarce herbs of the land. For another seventeen years, Mary was tormented by "wild beasts—mad desires and passions." After these years of temptation, however, she overcame the passions and was led by the Theotokos in all things.
Following 47 years in solitude, she met the priest St. Zosima in the desert, who pleaded with her to tell him of her life. She recounted her story with great humility while also demonstrating her gift of clairvoyance; she knew who Zosima was and his life story despite never having met him before. Finally, she asked Zosima to meet her again the following year at sunset on Holy Thursday by the banks of the Jordan.
Zosima did exactly this, though he began to doubt his experience as the sun began to go that night. Then Mary appeared on the opposite side of the Jordan; crossing herself, she miraculously walked across the water and met Zosima. When he attempted to bow, she rebuked him, saying that as a priest he was far superior, and furthermore, he was holding the Holy Mysteries. Mary then received communion and walked back across the Jordan after giving Zosima instructions about his monastery and that he should return to where they first met exactly a year later. When he did so, he found Mary's body with a message written on the sand asking him for burial and revealing that she had died immediately after receiving the Holy Mysteries the year before (and thus had been miraculously transported to the spot where she now lay). So Zosima, amazed, began to dig, but soon tired; then a lion approached and began to help him, that is, after Zosima had recovered from his fear of the creature. Thus St. Mary of Egypt was buried. Zosima returned to the monastery, told all he had seen, and improved the faults of the monks and abbot there. He died at almost a hundred years old in the same monastery.
St. Mary of Egypt
She began her life as a young woman who followed the passions of the body, running away from her parents at age twelve for Alexandria. There she lived as a harlot for seventeen years, refusing money from the men that she copulated with, instead living by begging and spinning flax.
One day, however, she met a group of young men heading toward the sea to sail to Jerusalem for the veneration of the Holy Cross. Mary went along for the ride, seducing the men as they traveled for the fun of it. But when the group reached Jerusalem and actually went towards the church, Mary was prohibited from entering by an unseen force. After three such attempts, she remained outside on the church patio, where she looked up and saw an icon of the Theotokos. She began to weep and prayed with all her might that the Theotokos might allow her to see the True Cross; afterwards, she promised, she would renounce her worldly desires and go wherever the Theotokos may lead her.
After this heart-felt conversion at the doors of the church, she fled into the desert to live as an ascetic. She survived for years on only three loaves of bread and thereafter on scarce herbs of the land. For another seventeen years, Mary was tormented by "wild beasts—mad desires and passions." After these years of temptation, however, she overcame the passions and was led by the Theotokos in all things.
Following 47 years in solitude, she met the priest St. Zosima in the desert, who pleaded with her to tell him of her life. She recounted her story with great humility while also demonstrating her gift of clairvoyance; she knew who Zosima was and his life story despite never having met him before. Finally, she asked Zosima to meet her again the following year at sunset on Holy Thursday by the banks of the Jordan.
Zosima did exactly this, though he began to doubt his experience as the sun began to go that night. Then Mary appeared on the opposite side of the Jordan; crossing herself, she miraculously walked across the water and met Zosima. When he attempted to bow, she rebuked him, saying that as a priest he was far superior, and furthermore, he was holding the Holy Mysteries. Mary then received communion and walked back across the Jordan after giving Zosima instructions about his monastery and that he should return to where they first met exactly a year later. When he did so, he found Mary's body with a message written on the sand asking him for burial and revealing that she had died immediately after receiving the Holy Mysteries the year before (and thus had been miraculously transported to the spot where she now lay). So Zosima, amazed, began to dig, but soon tired; then a lion approached and began to help him, that is, after Zosima had recovered from his fear of the creature. Thus St. Mary of Egypt was buried. Zosima returned to the monastery, told all he had seen, and improved the faults of the monks and abbot there. He died at almost a hundred years old in the same monastery.