Hadiths, which ones?

[Union]

Salam illykitty,

I think about Aisha the same that i think about the supposed age of Isaac's wife : they were more older.

Peace Pastek . What was the age of the wife of Prophet Issac ? What led you to believe that Lady Aisha was of the same age about to her age ?

 

[Pastek]

Salam Union

Concerning the supposed age of Prophet Isaac (as) wife, here the post of Farouk about it : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3502193-post553.html

Concerning Aisha's age i don't know if you understand me well, i said i don't believe that she was 9 , like i don't believe that Isaac's wife was 3.
I already talked about my point of view concerning Aisha in this thread :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/145413-how-old-aisha-when-she-married.html

 

[Gharib]

I know this revolves a lot around Aisha but please bear with me. Union posted a thread about Aisha in the Quran only section:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/quranist-dir/155401-quran-disapproves-child-marraige-aisha.html

And this was one of the links he posted in his thread:
AYESHA AGE THE MYTH OF* A PROVERBIAL WEDDING EXPOSED

I think these are what people who think she wasn't 9 often use as reasoning... What do you think of these?

Also, to anyone who thinks she was more than 9, say if it was proven she was 9 would this change anything to you? Hopefully I get some view points on this.

Anyway, sorry this revolves around this a lot, I'm trying to get my head around this... I know either case it doesn't mean a grown man or an elder has to take a young bride but it still disturbs me, being honest. I'll also pray about this matter, hopefully my mind can be put to rest over this.

I read the thread but not the link. If the thread contains material from the link then it contains many contradictory and wrong information.

I can either refute the whole thread or I can address the points which you have a problem with. Let me know what you prefer. And maybe I should do it in the 'same faith debates' section so that Union and those who share the same views can defend their views and to prevent the derailing of this thread.

 

[Union]

I read the thread but not the link. If the thread contains material from the link then it contains many contradictory and wrong information.

I can either refute the whole thread or I can address the points which you have a problem with. Let me know what you prefer. And maybe I should do it in the 'same faith debates' section so that Union and those who share the same views can defend their views and to prevent the derailing of this thread.

My thread solely rely on the evidences from the Qur'an . The link I posted is another way to look into the issue just to demonstrate that there are divergence views on the age of Aisha during her marriage . It doesn't matter to me whether these are refutable or not .

But if you really want to refute the evidences from the Qur'an against child marriage - please open a thred in debate section and pm me , I will fly over there .

 

[Union]

Salam Union

Concerning the supposed age of Prophet Isaac (as) wife, here the post of Farouk about it : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3502193-post553.html

Concerning Aisha's age i don't know if you understand me well, i said i don't believe that she was 9 , like i don't believe that Isaac's wife was 3.
I already talked about my point of view concerning Aisha in this thread :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/145413-how-old-aisha-when-she-married.html

OIC . Now I get you . Thanks and I do really respect your view on that .

 

[dynavert2012]

I know this revolves a lot around Aisha but please bear with me. Union posted a thread about Aisha in the Quran only section:

And this was one of the links he posted in his thread:
AYESHA AGE THE MYTH OF* A PROVERBIAL WEDDING EXPOSED

Bismillah Alrhman alraheem
Hello again illykitty,
i really was hesitated to answer or not, not for something about myself but about you as i don't know if that really will help you to rest over your mind or not, i'm not blaming you for that, i know how seekers act, i'm just worried while we are trying to fix things make it worst.
i didn't read the whole thread just the link, and wait till see will they be a debate or not about the thread.
i'll quote now from the link and reply it:-

Most of these narratives printed in the Hadith books are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years.

there's a couple of misinformation here, i don't actually the reason behind it, is it made by ignorance or it was meant! or it's me who misunderstood it

first thing that it's already more than two or three had reported the hadith not only Hisham ibn urwah, i'd like first to highlight the Hz. Ayisha was the aunt of the father of Hisham "Urwah" as Urawah was the son of her older sister Asmaa, so he knows his aunt surly and took to her face to face, no doubt about that.
second, it was narrated with the authority of others rather than Hisham ibn urwah, for example in sahih Muslim book 8, chapter 10, hadith 3311, the isnad of this hadith was Aiysha told alaswad told abraham told alamaash told Muslim, this is the chain of people from Ayisha to Muslim, it's totally different than the way of Hisham ibn urawah on the authority of his father
third way to Ayisha , Ayisha told yahya ibn abdelrahman told mohamed ibn amr told abo dawd, so the hadith in the book of abu dawd but i couldn't find it's number in the English version, usually the numbers are too different from Arabic to English versions
also it was reported in other books like Musnad ahmed ibn hanbal
second false claim that all of the narratives are ppl of Iraq where Hisham ibn urawh moved, and that's a false claim, there are three narratives are from the people of medinah who narrated this hadith in the authority of hisham when he were in medinah "i.e. while his memory was still fresh"

Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and the reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) report that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah:

" He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (REF: Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

Correct claim but not applied for the hadith of age of Ayisha as there are three narratives narated it on the authority of hisham while he was in medinah as i mentioned above and their names are as following :-
abdualrahman ibn abu alzenad, his father and abduallah ibn mohamed ibn hayhay ibn urwah, do you understand all of that stuff?

CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.

and this for me shows how the author of this article isn't familiar by Islamic books, Imam Tabri or ibn Jarir tabri, isn't scholar in Hadith, he's a historian and so his mission isn't to tell me this authentic or not, his main mission is to collect news from people, and to mention how he get this news, i.e. his source, this source could be valid or invalid and so in the book of history of Tabari you will find some biblical texts that contradicts with quran, that not means that it;s Tabari's opinion, but he's just telling us that there's another historian story for example abut prophet david and it's source is the biblical text, it's contradicted with the quran and it's not authentic, but mentioned it as a collection of all stories and so before you read a book you have to know the author's target of this book and his way of work in that work, but seems this articles's author missed that

and you can take the same reason as a reply for evidence#4
to be Continued in shaa allah

 

[illykitty]

Salam illykitty,

I think about Aisha the same that i think about the supposed age of Isaac's wife : they were more older.

Oh okay, do you think some think she was 9 because they only read that one Hadith and don't bother with other ones?

What do you think about the impact of her age on the ummah? Would there be less child marriages?

 

[dynavert2012]

evidence 5 about her age during the battle of Uhud and Badr comparing her to the age of Abduallah ibn Umar, he's really smart to use that to refute her 9 years age story, but there's a difference in abduallah's mission and her mission, as he was proposed to be a fighter but she was a nurse, and all what i said is Allah knows the best

evidence 6, about surat qamr, all i found different sources said that abduallah ibn abaas said it was revealed 7 years before the battle of badr "2 H" and so it was 5 years before Hijrah, so she was about 4 years, so could be called Jariah as he mentioned

evidence 7, i can't refute it as i'm not really familiar by the right word that should be used.

i never think before that i'll do all of that research about the age of Hz/ Aysha, and i really wondered from all of the search results i found talking about her age, i'll start to believe that it's the six pillar of Islam because of that much number of claiming and answers, but i think the importance came due to defending the sahih bukhari not the age itself

 

[illykitty]

I guess one thing that bothers me... Why would a man want this:

Instead of this:

Surely everyone can see the first one is a child and the second is a woman...

 

[dynavert2012]

i'm also like you i don't know why, like many other behaviors of ppl that i can't find a justification for it, and also i can find a ppl who had a desire in male kids, i don't know why

 

[Pastek]

Oh okay, do you think some think she was 9 because they only read that one Hadith and don't bother with other ones?

What do you think about the impact of her age on the ummah? Would there be less child marriages?

Probably.

But i think that's not just religious. It's not normal that a man prefer a child instead of a woman.

 

[illykitty]

i'm also like you i don't know why, like many other behaviors of ppl that i can't find a justification for it, and also i can find a ppl who had a desire in male kids, i don't know why

Yes, I'm not sure why people would want this. I think most people got an inner sense of right and wrong and perhaps we seek to protect children... So if we see something like this it just doesn't feel right.

Problem is these people probably justify this... Maybe the girl had reached puberty, it's no stretch I looked very similar to her when I did but she doesn't look happy, I don't think she wanted this. I don't think it's Islamic at all.

It's sad.

Probably.

But i think that's not just religious. It's not normal that a man prefer a child instead of a woman.

I agree it's not normal.

 

[dynavert2012]

Yes, I'm not sure why people would want this. I think most people got an inner sense of right and wrong and perhaps we seek to protect children... So if we see something like this it just doesn't feel right.

Problem is these people probably justify this... Maybe the girl had reached puberty, it's no stretch I looked very similar to her when I did but she doesn't look happy, I don't think she wanted this. I don't think it's Islamic at all.

It's sad.

sad and painful
i think she's not happy cuz she's marrying a too old man not a youth, may if he's a youth she would be happier
it's not Islamic for sure, but i can't say it's Haram if it was done by her will and she wasn't forced to do which i assume that not happned and she was forced to marry

 

[Gharib]

My refutation of Union's thread on the age of Aisha.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-claims-age-aisha-radiallahu.html#post3536826

 

[Gharib]

I guess one thing that bothers me... Why would a man want this:

Instead of this:


Surely everyone can see the first one is a child and the second is a woman...

If the first one has reached puberty, then she is an adult by Islamic law. That aside, those marriages are forced, the female gets no say.

Cases like those involve two families where one becomes indebted to the other and so in order to save trouble they forcibly marry off their daughters to the men of the other family. Kind of like slavery.

 

[illykitty]

My refutation of Union's thread on the age of Aisha.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-claims-age-aisha-radiallahu.html#post3536826

Interesting thread, Gharib, I'll be looking forward to the answers and refutations.

In any case, I realise that it's all very complex and if one day I can gain more knowledge, I'll look into it again but for the moment, my mind is at ease about this.

I just wish some justice (in this life) was done for girls who are married young and are suffering because of this. I believe in justice in the afterlife but I don't think it's a reason to let things happen in this one.

 

[Gharib]

Interesting thread, Gharib, I'll be looking forward to the answers and refutations.

In any case, I realise that it's all very complex and if one day I can gain more knowledge, I'll look into it again but for the moment, my mind is at ease about this.

I just wish some justice (in this life) was done for girls who are married young and are suffering because of this. I believe in justice in the afterlife but I don't think it's a reason to let things happen in this one.

You are right, we shouldn't allow crimes and injustice to happen just because one day justice will be done to those who were wronged.

It is good news to hear that you are leaving this matter aside for now. I know it can be difficult to accept if she indeed was 9 at the time of marriage. I struggled with this issue and some others for a while. Living in a society that teaches you that it is not permissible to marry under the age of 18 and then to have something else say that marriage is allowed at a much younger age can be very very difficult. I know many Muslims who'd probably never accept her age being 9 due to non-Islamic influence of being an adult at the age of 18 among other things.

 

[illykitty]

If the first one has reached puberty, then she is an adult by Islamic law. That aside, those marriages are forced, the female gets no say.

Problem I have, if she had reached puberty, her body is still small... She might get hurt (or worse) from spending a night with a man or have complications delivering a child.

Of course though, no man has the right to force himself on any woman until they are ready... But something just doesn't feel right about men wanting unformed girls who just reached puberty rather than fully formed woman.

My hips, for example, were much smaller when I reached puberty than 4 years later when I was fully formed (been wearing the same size of clothes since then). So if I did get married at 10, the man would have needed to wait about 4 years... Which is why I ask why not just wait until their bodies are formed like an adult's?

Edited to add: I don't personally have an answer about age at which we should get married. It's a subject that involves biology, science, Islamic laws... I'm not knowledgeable enough. But going by my conscience I feel we should wait for girls to be educated and fully formed at least. It's hard to give an age or clear line for things like this.

 

[Gharib]

Problem I have, if she had reached puberty, her body is still small... She might get hurt (or worse) from spending a night with a man or have complications delivering a child.

I cannot speak about things which I don't know. These girls are given to them, it is not they who seek them. Moreover, marriage in Islam isn't only about having kids.

Of course though, no man has the right to force himself on any woman until they are ready... But something just doesn't feel right about men wanting unformed girls who just reached puberty rather than fully formed woman.

Please, remember that this practice is performed only in the middle east by a very small minority. There are many people who are Muslims and commit non- Islamic actions/practices. The majority of Muslims do not practice this.

My hips, for example, were much smaller when I reached puberty than 4 years later when I was fully formed (been wearing the same size of clothes since then). So if I did get married at 10, the man would have needed to wait about 4 years... Which is why I ask why not just wait until their bodies are formed like an adult's?

This is something that I can't answer. I have no idea why.

 

[illykitty]

Thank you for your honest answers Gharib. I have no answers either but it's okay. I've got my own understanding about this matter.

I just wish Islam wasn't used as justifications and give more reasons to anti-religious people to criticise it. It's ironic how both sides got so much in common!