Hamas and Hospitals… Exposed

[Kenny]

I’m not surprised… we knew it all along but there are always those who deny the responsibility that Hamas has for what is happening to the innocent in Gaza.

 

[The Hammer]

Both sides are responsible everybody sucks. The End.

 

[dybmh]

Both sides are responsible everybody sucks. The End.

That's a rather lazy answer to a very complicated issue.

 

[The Hammer]

That's a rather lazy answer to a very complicated issue.

I'm going to disagree. War sucks. People are dying. I don't give a rats *** about blame.

What you call a lazy answer, I see as the only true mindset to peace. Good night.

 

[The Hammer]

 

[dybmh]

I'm going to disagree. War sucks. People are dying. I don't give a rats *** about blame.

What you call a lazy answer, I see as the only true mindset to peace.

If you don't care about blame, then why are you blaming? Claiming both sides are responsible is blaming them both. If it's undesirable to do the hard work of learning the details, then it makes sense to admit ignorance. But it doesn't make sense to blame everybody.

The important aspect of this conflict that is being highlighted in this thread are the lies that are being told by the anti-israel propagandists. They have been saying that israel is lying about the manner which Hamas has setup command and control centers in hospitals. As usual, the anti-israel position is false.

The problem with taking the easy route is it permits the lies instead of standing in opposition to them. It's not that I don't sympathize. I do. It can be very uncomfortable to learn that news sources, politicians, academics, and trusted friends are being easily manipulated. Their pity on the Palestinians is being weaponized. Their intelligence, their education, and their good intentions are not protecting them from being exploited. To the contrary it is making it easier to exploit them.

The easy way, the lazy way, to avoid discomfort, to avoid confrontation with friends and political allies, is to avoid the facts and blame everybody. If you are not a target, then you have luxury of avoiding facts to maintain a mindset where your status quo is not challenged.

Be assured that I would stand up for you and yours if/when the majority targets you for defamation and libel. I stand up in opposition to lies told about Islam and Muslims even though they do not seem to be doing the same for me and mine. Long ago, in the 80s and 90s I was speaking out against prejudice of gay and lesbian people in a small suburb if Cincinnati, OH. I am not afraid of losing friends or political allies in order to do what's right. I would rather stand alone or join with small group with principles than take the easy way and follow the crowd in complicity.

When it came to speaking out against anti-gay prejudice I was definitely alone and ostracized. This was long before it was popular to be pro-lgbt+. There are not any other Jewish people in the forum which defend Islam. I have argued against other another Jew to defend Muslims of their honor. I do these these things because they're the right thing to do.

It's not transactional. Even if the Jewish people are abandoned and treated unjustly, those of us with principles will always fight against injustice perpetrated against others.

If I was correct about gay rights, and I am correct about Islam, it's a direct consequence of looking at the facts and ignoring the temptation to follow the crowd. That's why I'm confident that I'm correct about this issue as well. That's why I'm confident that the anti-israel position is wrong. Consistently the anti-israel position avoids the facts and appeals to authority, following the band wagon, the pied piper of propaganda.

 

[The Hammer]

If you don't care about blame, then why are you blaming? Claiming both sides are responsible is blaming them both.

Inasmuch the same way as saying two football teams are at fault for playing football.

The only true path to peace is to put that blame of one side over the other aside.

Hence why I said both are at fault, not in a sort of blame, but as the only way there are two winners in a football game is for both sides to stop playing. Same for war.

And the fact stands, war kills people. War sucks.

 

[oldbadger]

I’m not surprised… we knew it all along but there are always those who deny the responsibility that Hamas has for what is happening to the innocent in Gaza.

Video didn't open here (UK).
You knew it all along?
I don't think you can blame any but the IDF leadership for the deaths of civilians in Gaza. They seem to be quite trigger happy, even killing Jewish hostages who were waving white flags.

Edit.....ah, it opened at last. Prisoners will tell anything required, especially of they are expecting a beating or death.

 

[dybmh]

I don't think you can blame any but the IDF leadership for the deaths of civilians in Gaza. They seem to be quite trigger happy, even killing Jewish hostages who were waving white flags.

Did you do any research on this before coming to your conclusion? It's unconventional warfare. Impersonating civilians is a tactic used by Hamas.

Here's the other side of the story. Even if you don't agree, isn't it good to hear both sides before making a judgement? That's the standard in all modern justice systems:

​

"The military said that the only people seen wearing civilian clothing there have been Hamas operatives, often unarmed.​

​

The operatives collect weapons left behind in various buildings, open fire at troops, and then flee again unarmed to another building.​

​

The IDF has also encountered several seemingly unarmed civilians in Shejaiya who turned out to be Hamas suicide bombers.​

​

There have also been several attempts by Hamas men in the area to lure soldiers into an ambush."​

​

Initial IDF probe: 3 hostages were shirtless, waving white flag when troops shot them

One of the 3 killed in tragic mistake shouted 'Help' in Hebrew; IDF says soldiers fired against protocols; on Wed., troops found 'SOS' and 'Help, 3 hostages' spray-painted nearby

www.timesofisrael.com

​

 

[libre]

That's a rather lazy answer to a very complicated issue.

I think 'both sides suck' is an undeveloped take lacking nuance.

However I see attempts to blame the entire situation on Hamas to be rather lazy apologia for the occupation.

 

[dybmh]

However I see attempts to blame the entire situation on Hamas to be rather lazy apologia for the occupation.

Whether or not it's lazy depends on whether the individual ( in this case, me ) is doing work to support their conclusions. Ultimately, it's the propaganda that's to blame. It is not the palestinian's child's fault that they are born to a palestinian family that teaches them the Jews stole their land, when the truth is: "we had to give up our land in order to make peace after attacking the israelis unjustly."

Just as americans ( myself ) need to cope with what we did to the native americans, just as germans need to cope witth what they did in WW2, the palestinians need to cope with the truth of their actions. They started an unjust war. They've been losing for over 70 years. At every opportunity for peace, they choose warfare. Not regular wafare. The worst of the worst atrocities.

I'm working on a longer more detailed response. Hopefully I will post it later today.

 

[libre]

Just as americans ( myself ) need to cope with what we did to the native americans, just as germans need to cope witth what they did in WW2, the palestinians need to cope with the truth of their actions. .

Comparing Palestinians who suffer under occupation to the Europeans that colonized North America is truly despicable double-talk.

Last week the Assembly of First Nations (an organization modelled after the UN), represented by over 600 First Nation chiefs who's nations are colonized by Canada unanimously supported a resolution to recognize Palestinians as an Indigenous people and call for a permanent ceasefire in this conflict. Indigenous leadership in Canada is simply not in agreement with you. I'm not familiar if there would be a good organization to parallel for the natives living in the United States, but there is a long history of Native American organizations like AIM supporting the Palestinians in their struggle.

It is the United States and it's running dogs in Europe that are invested in defending Israel's occupation in the international community.
It's the colonized people around the world that have liberated themselves that support the ceasefire and a broad variety of resolutions against Israel.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Whether or not it's lazy depends on whether the individual ( in this case, me ) is doing work to support their conclusions. Ultimately, it's the propaganda that's to blame. It is not the palestinian's child's fault that they are born to a palestinian family that teaches them the Jews stole their land, when the truth is: "we had to give up our land in order to make peace after attacking the israelis unjustly."

Just as americans ( myself ) need to cope with what we did to the native americans, just as germans need to cope witth what they did in WW2, the palestinians need to cope with the truth of their actions. They started an unjust war. They've been losing for over 70 years. At every opportunity for peace, they choose warfare. Not regular wafare. The worst of the worst atrocities.

I'm working on a longer more detailed response. Hopefully I will post it later today.

More like Israelis have to cope with what they are doing to the Palestinians. The Palestinian fighting back against Israeli colonialism and Apartheid isnt unjust at all.

And when it comes to the worst atrocities, dont conflate Hamas with Palestinians. If you go along that line of thinking then one can say that Israelis are the same as the Israeli government and therefore none are innocent. Which means that it was ok for Hamas to target the civilians on Oct 7.

 

[dybmh]

who suffer under occupation

How do they suffer? Why do they suffer? Do you know?

an organization modelled after the UN)

So they're politicians, right? Do you believe them without checking the facts?

Indigenous leadership in Canada is simply not in agreement with you.

Politicians?

long history of Native American organizations like AIM supporting the Palestinians in their struggle.

So you're employing a bandwagon fallacy? It's popular therefore it's correct?

That's flat earth reasoning. Just because the earth looks flat, doesn't mean it's actually flat. Just because people say Israel is wrong, doesn't mean it's true.

Where are your facts? Do you have anything other than faith producing your conclusions?

It's the colonized people around the world that have liberated themselves that support the ceasefire and a broad variety of resolutions against Israel.

Their opinions are meaningless if they are not based on facts.

 

[dybmh]

More like Israelis have to cope with what they are doing to the Palestinians.

What atrocities are those?

In our previous conversation I directed you to a BBC article documenting the systematic rape disemboweling, by Hamas, and their video recording the atrocities for use in training and "breeding" human monsters. Babies are being murdered, there's evidence that innocent people are being burned alive.

This evidence of human atrocities by Hamas was confirmed by international 3rd parties. These are among the worst of the atrocities that can be perpetrated against human beings. They are committed by Hamas and only Hamas.

What atrocities are you talking about? What is your source for this? Did you look at the BBC article I posted? Here it is again along with the evidence of the other atrocities by Hamas on Oct 7th.

Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities - The Media Line

Stifling the urge to retch became a difficult […]

themedialine.org

Baseless claim that Israeli media probe found no babies beheaded by Hamas | Fact check

The Haaretz newspaper called the claims baseless. It reported in October that the bodies of decapitated babies had been found after the attacks.

eu.usatoday.com

Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October, BBC hears - BBC News

The BBC has seen and heard evidence that Hamas fighters committed horrific sexual violence in Israel.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

That's a rather lazy answer to a very complicated issue.

Are you planning to mediate the Middle East conflict in this forum?

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

What atrocities are those?

Well...

According to the Gaza health authorities, over 19,400 Palestinians have been killed in the enclave since the start of Israel’s retaliation for Hamas’ deadly terror attacks on 7 October, about 70 per cent of them women and children.

Probably all the children were Hamas.

 

[dybmh]

dont conflate Hamas with Palestinians.

Not all Palestinians, of course. The majority of Palestinians elected Hamas. Immediately following Hamas went to war with their the political enemies. The Palestinians respect this, they seem to love it.

Here's a crowd gathered around a pair of Palestinians who were executed without trial and hung from a tower. The crowd is loving this. This is Palestinian culture. It's how they are raised.

It's not that I don't have sympathy on them. I do. But if someone is pointing a rifle at me, if they are pointing a rifle at my family, I will do what needs to be done. I will do it as quickly and as painlessly as possible. But I will not, and should not hesitate to wait for them to pull the trigger.

"A Palestinian mob can be seen in the videos abusing the bodies and hanging them on an electric pole as crowds surrounded the area, screaming "You traitors!" N12 reported."

Hamas executes three West Bank Palestinians for 'spying for Israel'

Their execution was later confirmed to have been committed by a firing squad, according to a document published by Hamas's military wing in the West Bank.

m.jpost.com

The Palestinians are raised for the purpose of killing innocent Israelis. Here's video footage of a Palestinian terrorist shooting into a car. Then there's a parade and honor given to the murderer. This is Palestinian culture. You won't find this among Israelis.

Here's a children's program teaching the children to hate. Notice the reference to Al-Aqsa. That's important because the Oct. 7th atrocities were named after it.

Naturally some dispute the translations here, but, there's so much anti-jewish content in the program it's very likely the translation is correct. Some dispute whether they actually say "annihilate the Jews", but, they cannot dispute "defend with our souls and our blood", that part is clear. The video I watched with these screenshots had an Arabic speaker confirming the translation.

Tomorrow's Pioneers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Here's another scene where they accuse The Jews "Yahudah" of killing everyone.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

The majority of Palestinians elected Hamas.

Both the President and the Prime Minister of Palestine are Fatah, not Hamas.

This is Palestinian culture. You won't find this among Israelis.

Amnesty International would love to have a word with you regarding Israeli culture:

Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians: a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity

Israeli authorities must be held accountable for committing the crime of apartheid against Palestinians, Amnesty International said today in a damning new report. The investigation details how Israel enforces a system of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people wherever it has...

www.amnesty.org

 

[Samael_Khan]

I wasnt talking about Hama

What atrocities are those?

In our previous conversation I directed you to a BBC article documenting the systematic rape disemboweling, by Hamas, and their video recording the atrocities for use in training and "breeding" human monsters. Babies are being murdered, there's evidence that innocent people are being burned alive.

This evidence of human atrocities by Hamas was confirmed by international 3rd parties. These are among the worst of the atrocities that can be perpetrated against human beings. They are committed by Hamas and only Hamas.

What atrocities are you talking about? What is your source for this? Did you look at the BBC article I posted? Here it is again along with the evidence of the other atrocities by Hamas on Oct 7th.

Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities - The Media Line

Stifling the urge to retch became a difficult […]

themedialine.org

Baseless claim that Israeli media probe found no babies beheaded by Hamas | Fact check

The Haaretz newspaper called the claims baseless. It reported in October that the bodies of decapitated babies had been found after the attacks.

eu.usatoday.com

Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October, BBC hears - BBC News

The BBC has seen and heard evidence that Hamas fighters committed horrific sexual violence in Israel.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wasnt talking about Hamas. I was talking about Palestinians. Israel killing over 10 000 people is an atrocity. The disenfranchisement of them is as well.