Hamas and Hospitals… Exposed

[Firenze]

If you don't care about blame, then why are you blaming? Claiming both sides are responsible is blaming them both. If it's undesirable to do the hard work of learning the details, then it makes sense to admit ignorance. But it doesn't make sense to blame everybody.

The important aspect of this conflict that is being highlighted in this thread are the lies that are being told by the anti-israel propagandists. They have been saying that israel is lying about the manner which Hamas has setup command and control centers in hospitals. As usual, the anti-israel position is false.

The problem with taking the easy route is it permits the lies instead of standing in opposition to them. It's not that I don't sympathize. I do. It can be very uncomfortable to learn that news sources, politicians, academics, and trusted friends are being easily manipulated. Their pity on the Palestinians is being weaponized. Their intelligence, their education, and their good intentions are not protecting them from being exploited. To the contrary it is making it easier to exploit them.

The easy way, the lazy way, to avoid discomfort, to avoid confrontation with friends and political allies, is to avoid the facts and blame everybody. If you are not a target, then you have luxury of avoiding facts to maintain a mindset where your status quo is not challenged.

Be assured that I would stand up for you and yours if/when the majority targets you for defamation and libel. I stand up in opposition to lies told about Islam and Muslims even though they do not seem to be doing the same for me and mine. Long ago, in the 80s and 90s I was speaking out against prejudice of gay and lesbian people in a small suburb if Cincinnati, OH. I am not afraid of losing friends or political allies in order to do what's right. I would rather stand alone or join with small group with principles than take the easy way and follow the crowd in complicity.

When it came to speaking out against anti-gay prejudice I was definitely alone and ostracized. This was long before it was popular to be pro-lgbt+. There are not any other Jewish people in the forum which defend Islam. I have argued against other another Jew to defend Muslims of their honor. I do these these things because they're the right thing to do.

It's not transactional. Even if the Jewish people are abandoned and treated unjustly, those of us with principles will always fight against injustice perpetrated against others.

If I was correct about gay rights, and I am correct about Islam, it's a direct consequence of looking at the facts and ignoring the temptation to follow the crowd. That's why I'm confident that I'm correct about this issue as well. That's why I'm confident that the anti-israel position is wrong. Consistently the anti-israel position avoids the facts and appeals to authority, following the band wagon, the pied piper of propaganda.

The easy and intellectually lazy way is to pretend that Israel has the moral high ground when they kill children because 'Hamas hides behind them'. The moral thing to do is to FIND ANOTHER WAY that doesn't kill 8000 children. 690 Israelis killed - 8000 Palestinian children for revenge and a total death toll of Palestinians approaching 20,000. The world sees Israeli for what it has become - the New Nazis. This is to be expected from a culture that sees Palestinians as..... to quote Ariel Sharon ..... cockroaches. No, Israel has no moral authority to tell others what is 'lazy'....

 

[Bthoth]

Israel is bombing palestinians which includes a lot of children. Also the collective punishment and apartheid, such as switching off their water and pushing them into Gaza, is a big problem.

Hamas was elected in the mid 2000s. Probably half the gazans alive today werent alive to even be apart of that vote.

Considering that the state of Israel is a coloniser and enforces apartheid on Palestinians, considering that Hamas is the only people fighting for Palestinians, I am not surprised that they have festivals for them. And I am not surprised that they are anti semitic since lots of zionists say that all jews who are against zionism are anti semitic.

But they do the same as the Israelis and many jews when it comes to Palestinians. Right here you are demonising Palestinians by conflating them with Hamas which lowkey justifies the indiscriminate killing of civilians in Gaza by Israel. So to me it is the pot calling the kettle black.

The other term for Jews against zionism are also called fringe by a few here. I prefer observing those fringe as the Jew and the other mislead by the term they are called in the tanakh specifically ezek 22. Read it, it will shock you that the events of now are mirrored but the biased do not want to observe the prophecy as representing now. It's weird as the state israel did not exist in the past as the chapter specifically states 'israel' and never mentions Jew even once as the oppressors but it does state 'israel'.

Read the chapter to see and than ask yourself, 'what could possibly do what the dialogue says, to a population?'

I would prefer trying to stop the mess before any bad happens but I am incapable of even reasoning with the small group here.

 

[Revoltingest]

Apparently you have selective reading

True.
There are many posts with large portions I skip.
But I've read yours completely.

 

[Samael_Khan]

No… I am saying that when they are wrong… they are wrong. Defacing a Mosque is wrong; if they violate the rules of engagement they are wrong

However, when the Arab world is wrong, they are wrong...

this is the problem and not Israel

When Israel are killing 10 000 plus people indiscriminately, has the ability to withhold resources from Gaza and enforces an apartheid state, then actually Israel is a huge part of the problem.

 

[Samael_Khan]

The other term for Jews against zionism are also called fringe by a few here. I prefer observing those fringe as the Jew and the other mislead by the term they are called in the tanakh specifically ezek 22. Read it, it will shock you that the events of now are mirrored but the biased do not want to observe the prophecy as representing now. It's weird as the state israel did not exist in the past as the chapter specifically states 'israel' and never mentions Jew even once as the oppressors but it does state 'israel'.

Read the chapter to see and than ask yourself, 'what could possibly do what the dialogue says, to a population?'

I would prefer trying to stop the mess before any bad happens but I am incapable of even reasoning with the small group here.

So I have read it.

The term Jew as applied to all jews didnt come about until after the babylonian exile. Before that, and especially in prophecy, the term Israel applies to all the tribes and people of Israel. Otherwise they are called the israelites. So I disagree with that point because the writer would have never used the term jew (which actually refers to those of the tribe of judah).

This chapter reminds me a lot of the opening chapters of Isaiah where god accuses the Israelites of the same thing.

I dont know if everything mentioned in Ezekiel 22 describes the current state of israel. But what I think leads to these people being like that is severe persecution, a superiority complex and indoctrination.

 

[oldbadger]

Did you do any research on this before coming to your conclusion? It's unconventional warfare. Impersonating civilians is a tactic used by Hamas.

......,.......

​

"The military said that the only people seen wearing civilian clothing there have been Hamas operatives, often unarmed.​

What were the killed children, women, other civilians and journalist wearing? Uniforms?

 

[oldbadger]

Sure I can. As another posted has posted here, there are weapons in every building that is connected by the multi-billion dollars tunnels. So they pop in one place as civilians, shoot, put the guns down, leave as civilians until they pop up in another place. For that matter, you wouldn’t even know if it was a civilian or not. You may be classifying a casualty of war as “a civilian” and he/she could be a Hamas fighter.
....

All those killed children and women? Hamas warriors all?

 

[dybmh]

Wide parts of the world have been indoctrinated to believe that Israel is always right and criticizing Israel is almost the same thing as the Holocaust, so no, the whole world is actively being turned away.

Wide parts of the world? Indoctrination? Think about that rationally for a moment, please. What does that look like in the scale you have described? What does that actually mean? Can you type out a description of what this indoctrination entails? In wide parts of the world? What is the method of this indoctrination? I'm serious.

I think you'll find when it's typed out, it's nonsense.

 

[dybmh]

What were the killed children, women, other civilians and journalist wearing? Uniforms?

Based on the video evidence, many of them did not leave Gaza and died as a result buildings being destroyed. Had they left, they would be alive like the other 1.8 million Gazans who chose to leave.

The bottom line is: your assumption that the Israeli's seem "trigger happy" is not based on facts. You cited an incident of "friendly fire", but there is good reason for this tragedy outside of your assumption. That's the part you cropped out of my post which you quoted.

 

[dybmh]

Israel killing over 10 000 people is an atrocity

No, it's a tragedy. The innocent were not the targets. They're death was not engineered to be as painful as humanly possible. Death by rape followed by disemboweling, and burning people alive is an atrocity.

Death from rubble falling from a building or from a tunnel collapsing under them from being in the wrong place at the wrong time is a tragedy.

You really can't tell the difference?

The disenfranchisement of them is as well.

It's nothing compared to the evil which occurred on Oct 7th and which Hamas has promised to repeat.

Ask yourself, please, would any amount of disenfranchisement make you want to rape and disembowel someone? Would any amount of oppression cause you to desire an innocent person that way? Would that ever arouse you? Does disenfranchisement cause that?

 

[dybmh]

FIND ANOTHER WAY

It needs to be considered from a military perspective.

There is no other way to clear Gaza of weapons and tunnels without compelling the occupants, both the citizens and the terrorists hiding among them, to vacate the area.

They must leave. Gaza has fallen to the worst of the worst sort of terrorists. These people are training a small army who seek out innocent victims to murder, first by raping them, then by disemboweling them. The Gazans elected them, and allowed them to fester. They knew who they were and did not rise up against them. That means Israel must clear the area for good of everyone in the region.

So, Israel tells the people, "leave". 1.8 million left. If the ones who chose to stay, or, were unable to leave interfere with clearing the area, postpone clearing the area, then the next time this happens no one will leave.

What happens then?

Israel either bombs the area anyway, ignoring that the citizens didn't leave, or, they go in with ground troops. When they do that the citizens will attack. When the citizens attack they will get slaughtered by the the Israeli military.

Do you understand now? A ground invasion lacking the air assault would wipe out the Gazans. Compelling them to leave while the area is cleared of munitions, ordinance, and tunnels saved 1.8 million lives. But it only works if the Gazans know, with 100% certainty, "the bombs are coming, we must leave."

There is no other way. The general public are not considering this from a military perspective. Israel is absolutely doing the right thing by clearing Gaza in the manner it is doing. Any other way produces more death of innocent Gazans who will fight against the invaders regardless of whether it is in their best interests or not.

Make sense?

 

[dybmh]

the biased do not want to observe the prophecy as representing now

Dude, you should probably read the rest of the book. The biased cherry pick and ignore details. That's what you're doing now, it's what you do consistently.

 

[oldbadger]

Based on the video evidence, many of them did not leave Gaza and died as a result buildings being destroyed. Had they left, they would be alive like the other 1.8 million Gazans who chose to leave.
......

.....did not leave Gaza.....?
Exactly where did you think that Palestinian civilians went o leave Gaza?

Water, food, clothing, power sources, medical provision, where are these sources in adequate supply in Gaza?

The Israeli leadership seems to be hard set on destroying much of the empathy for Israelis and Jews everywhere, I think. Not good.

 

[dybmh]

I am incapable of even reasoning with the small group here.

The first step is listening. Understanding that there is a lot you don't know. If you won't listen, and assume you know it all, then you are not being reasonable and there is no opportunity for reasoning with others. It's just preaching.

 

[dybmh]

Exactly where did you think that Palestinian civilians went o leave Gaza?

The israelis disclosed where and when they would begin their air assault on Gaza. The gave the Gazans safe corridors of travel to flee from these areas and 1.8 million left. If the assault is targeted in the north, the Gazans flee to the south. Ideally the surrounding Arab nations would accept them, but, since the terrorists are mixed with the population, naturally, they're going to prohibit that.

Water, food, clothing, power sources, medical provision, where are these sources in adequate supply in Gaza?

The Gazans chose leaders who prioritize death, murder, and rape instead of water, food, power, etc ... They wanted independence, they made their choice. They chose war instead of resources.

The people who have fled are surviving. It's not pretty, but, they are alive. The israelis are not raping them. The israelis are not disemboweling them. The israelis are not targeting them and burning them alive.

 

[dybmh]

When Israel are killing 10 000 plus people indiscriminately

It's not indiscriminate. That's a slogan with zero basis in fact. If you watch the videos the air assault is targeted. There is military value to the targets.

 

[dybmh]

Does Israel bear any responsibility for what it does?

Of course. It's actions are justified, measured, and appropriate.

As I've written before, and you have ignored:

1. Originally the law of the land was "might=right". Prior to WW1 the Ottoman empire (Arabs) controlled the region.
2. The Ottoman's chose the losing side of WW1 and evaporated.
3. The league of nations which was a result of the allied victory in WW1 established mandatory palestine which included an intention for a jewish refuge in their ancestral homeland
4. Jewish people began buying property in mandatory palestine and moving there in increased numbers
5. the Arabs attacked them repeatedly very shortly after starting around 1920.
6. the Arabs have not stopped attacking the jewish people in israel ever since
7. israel has won every conflict
8. ending the conflicts have involed armistice agreements where the arabs have given up land. The arabs negotiated for peace using land. israel has taken that terrirtory in order to establish defensible borders for itself.
9. israel has returned much of that territory negotiating for peace with its neighbors. Peace in land which was legally purchased.
10. lacking defensible borders, a buffer, between themselves and those who will not cease sending rockets, suicide bombers and soldiers to attack innocent civilians, israel has no other choice but to setup up walls and check points into and out of their country. Their country which was established as a result of the ottaman empire collapse and the world community attempting to end "might=right" politics.
11. these walls and check-points are neceessary and justified, but, the arabs who are fighting don't know it. they don't know that they're land was not stolen.

Israel is not responsible for the lies and misunderstanding of the gazans who think their land was stolen. The ones who are responsible are the ones who perpetuate the lies, spread the rumors, and lay out fertile soil for the propaganda. If the arabs would stop sending rockets, suicide bombers, and soldiers into israel, then the "oppression" would cease.

None of this would be happening if the arabs had not attacked jewish people for buying land land legally and settling in it.

This conflict can end, if the arabs choose to end it. They are consenting to their own oppression.

 

[dybmh]

Both the President and the Prime Minister of Palestine are Fatah, not Hamas.

The majority of seats went to Hamas. The majority of palestinians supported Hamas. And, a majority support them now.

Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign

The findings signal more difficulties for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s goal of ending Hamas’ capabilities.

apnews.com

The people are united in their opposition to israel even though it is not in their best interests.

Here is a Hamas recruiting video showing they will take water lines from the ground for the purpose of making rockets. When it comes to war with israel, the palestinians will choose war over water.

 

[dybmh]

Hence why I said both are at fault, not in a sort of blame, but as the only way there are two winners in a football game is for both sides to stop playing. Same for war.

The problem with this logic is that israel is trying to "stop playing the game". But the arabs continue to attack. If the arabs stop playing, then, the war ends. If israel stops playing they die.

You are asking the jewish people in israel to commit suicide. If israel "stops playing" then the worst of worst take over in the region, and, the arab populace is either powerless to stop it, or, maybe that's what want. Maybe they want a "mighty" power to dominate the region, as long as it is one of their own who is doing the dominating.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

What is the method of this indoctrination?

Official wording.

That definition, produced by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance in 2016, includes among its “contemporary examples” of antisemitism “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination”. In other words, anti-Zionism is Jew hatred. In so doing, Macron joined Germany, Britain, the United States and roughly 30 other governments.

Debunking the myth that anti-Zionism is antisemitic | Peter Beinart

The long read: All over the world, it is an alarming time to be Jewish – but conflating anti-Zionism with Jew-hatred is a tragic mistake

www.theguardian.com