• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Hands off Cain

Do you agree with Capital Punishment?

  • Not at all.

    Votes: 16 64.0%
  • Only in certain rare cases (Explain)

    Votes: 7 28.0%
  • Yes

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • Other (Explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    25

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think that for aggravated murder (i.e. murder in cold blood, being a serial killer, murdering out of hate, murdering a police officer) the death penalty should certainly be an option - but not for all cases of murder:

Only in cases of aggravated murder

So if it is a casual murder, no death penalty? The death penalty is clearly not a deterrent. We have had death penalties for millennia and people still feel compelled to murder each other.

How are we to judge someone who is raised in an inner city slum, where the child is socialized to believe there are good reasons for killing others. Is that a failure of the child or young adult, or a failure of society? What if someone has a mental pathology and literally cannot comprehend right from wrong?

Does the state or governments endorsement of justified killing muddy the waters? If there is always some reason to justify killing, does it inevitably create a slippery slope of what can be justified? Should we not just say that it is never justified to kill? That killing for any reason is wrong? Should this not be the cultural standard to which we hold each other, to which we hold government?

If there are so many factors for why people are willing to murder that go beyond the individuals control, I think we must acknowledge that, and have appropriate consequences for actions, with the possibility of reformation and redemption. For some that may mean life in prison because they are too damaged or mentally incapable of being rehabilitated. But the state should not engage in the very thing that is unjustifiable.

And lastly, there is the issue of those unjustly accused. We know it happens, and it happens in death penalty cases. For this reason alone, the state should never use the death penalty.

The fact that society, by whatever cause, has members that are willing to murder, is a burden that society must bear, but not by engaging in murder itself.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
The thread title is taken from a NGO, Hands off Cain which has been fighting for the abolition of death penalty.
Especially because in certain parts of the world, many innocent people are executed for reasons we Westerners disapprove of. Adultery, apostasy, homosexuality, etc.
But speaking of the West, the US have been doing a great job trying to limit the cases where death penalty is applied.

I am curious about your opinions.:)

I'm against capital punishment, or for that matter, other people thinking they have the right to punish others.

However, I do think that those that have demonstrated that they cannot play nicely with others in society should be separated from them or it.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Ok. Do you think Nikolas Cruz should be put into that box?

I don't know him. Is he going to nuke the whole world unless put in your box? IF so THEN yes

Thank you for the link. Though too much to read for me

Seems not to qualify to be put in your box

Note: He is very young. Maybe possible to brainwash him (also good to check why he became like that)
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
The thread title is taken from a NGO, Hands off Cain which has been fighting for the abolition of death penalty.
Especially because in certain parts of the world, many innocent people are executed for reasons we Westerners disapprove of. Adultery, apostasy, homosexuality, etc.
But speaking of the West, the US have been doing a great job trying to limit the cases where death penalty is applied.

I am curious about your opinions.:)

Unfortunately, the US has executed 10 people in 2020, putting us into the double-digits... Something we haven't seen since the 1800's. :oops:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
At this point the vote stands at 14 to 4. It would be interesting to how many of those voting live in the U.S.A.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Thank you for the link. Though too much to read for me

Seems not to qualify to be put in your box

Note: He is very young. Maybe possible to brainwash him (also good to check why he became like that)


Yes...he is so young. This video is so heartbreaking.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The thread title is taken from a NGO, Hands off Cain which has been fighting for the abolition of death penalty.
Especially because in certain parts of the world, many innocent people are executed for reasons we Westerners disapprove of. Adultery, apostasy, homosexuality, etc.
But speaking of the West, the US have been doing a great job trying to limit the cases where death penalty is applied.

I am curious about your opinions.:)
IMO, there's no reasonable justification for choosing a death sentence over life in prison without parole.

Still, there are some cases where we can't be sure that a life sentence will actually be served. We've seen stories over the years where a drug kingpin or terrorist leader has been broken out of prison by their followers. Just recently in the US, we saw a corrupt president pardon dozens of his allies who were serving sentences from everything to financial crimes to murder.

... so I can support the death penalty in cases like that: people who would normally serve life sentences for heinous crimes, but are:

- leaders of terrorist or insurrection groups
- drug kingpins whose cartels have a history of gun battles with the police and the like
- prominent Republicans who curry favour with people who may become the US president

Still, the need for the death penalty is an admission of serious failures in a penal system that are so bad that it can't reliably fulfill its core purpose: keep people incarcerated for their full sentences.

Edit: as an example... hindsight is 20-20 and all that, but with the knowledge that Trump would pardon them, it would have been better for these four murderers to have been executed than for them to walk free: Trump pardons of Blackwater contractors an ‘insult to justice’
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
@Estro Felino

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles

There are two ways, one of life and one of death; but a great difference between the two ways.


If we choose the 'way of life' over against the culture of death, then we don't get to pick-and-choose which human beings are worthy of that inalienable right.

The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) states in Article 2: 'Everyone’s right to life shall be protected by law'. Every applicant state that wishes to join the European Union must first have abolished the death penalty and become a signatory of the ECHR.

In 2018, Pope Francis ordered a change in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the official compendium of church teaching, when he termed the death penalty “inadmissible” under all circumstances. His latest encyclical Fratelli Tutti (2020), correctly noted: “From the earliest centuries of the Church, some were clearly opposed to capital punishment". In “Fratelli Tutti,” the pope grounds his opposition to capital punishment not only in mercy, perhaps his most characteristic pontifical refrain, but also in opposition to revenge. “Fear and resentment can easily lead to viewing punishment in a vindictive and even cruel way, rather than as part of a process of healing and reintegration into society,” he writes.

There is nothing in the New Testament, nor for that matter the early apostolic tradition, which mandates - in any sense - 'temporal' punishments such as the death penalty. This was recognised even in medieval times, that Christ had not given the church sanction for such things (thus they had to justify it on other grounds post-Nicaea as the church became the state religion of the Roman Empire!):


"The judicial precepts [of the Old Testament] did not bind for ever, but were annulled by the coming of Christ [...] In the ministry of the New Law, no punishment of death or of bodily maiming is appointed...As regards Peter, he did not put Ananias and Saphira to death...The Priests or Levites of the Old Testament were the ministers of the Old Law, which appointed corporal penalties."

(St. Thomas Aquinas, SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The judicial precepts (Prima Secundae Partis, Q. 104), 1265–1274)

Christian societies, on the basis of our New Testament ethical principles and our Ante-Nicene Patristic tradition, should never have become 'persecuting societies' that sentenced other human beings to death. This was a gross aberration in our sacred tradition that Pope Francis has finally set aright doctrinally.

Around A.D. 177, the church father St. Athenagoras of Athens wrote a defense of Christianity in which he stated that Christians not only are forbidden to kill anyone for any reason but “cannot endure even to see a man put to death, though justly. … We, deeming that to see a man put to death is much the same as killing him, have abjured such spectacles. How, then, when we do not even look on, lest we should contract guilt and pollution, can we put a man to death?” (Athenagoras Presbeia, A Plea for the Christians, ANF).

In the following century:


CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book VI (Lactantius)


“For he who reckons it a pleasure, that a man, though justly condemned, should be slain in his sight, pollutes his conscience as much as if he should become a spectator and a sharer of a homicide which is secretly committed … Therefore they do not spare even the innocent, but practice upon all that which they have learned in the slaughter of the wicked. It is not therefore befitting that those who strive to keep to the path of justice should be companions and sharers in this public homicide.

For when God forbids us to kill, He not only prohibits us from open violence, which is not even allowed by the public laws, but He warns us against the commission of those things which are esteemed lawful among men. Thus it will be neither lawful for a just man to engage in warfare, since his warfare is justice itself, not to accuse anyone of a capital charge, because it makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or rather by the sword, since it is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, with regard to this precept of God, there ought to be no exception at all; but that it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred animal.”


(Lactantius (c. 250 – c. 325) (Divine Institutes, 6:20))

For a time, many of our bishops - including the Popes of Rome - protested against the use of capital punishment by temporal Christian rulers. In the fourth century, for example, a preacher named Priscillian had created a large movement in Spain which went against the established church and taught "heresy". Emperor Maximus decided to issue the death penalty against Priscillian and his disciples. Saint Ambrose of Milan, St. Martin of Tours and Pope Siricius threatened to excommunicate the Emperor:


Priscillian - Wikipedia


Pope Siricius, Ambrose of Milan, and Martin of Tours protested against the execution, largely on the jurisdictional grounds that an ecclesiastical case should not be decided by a civil tribunal, and worked to reduce the persecution. Pope Siricius censured not only Ithacius but the emperor himself. On receiving information from Maximus, he excommunicated Ithacius and his associates. On an official visit to Trier, Ambrose refused to give any recognition to Itacius, "not wishing to have anything to do with bishops who had sent heretics to their death".[9] Before the trial, Martin had obtained from Maximus a promise not to apply a death penalty. After the execution, Martin broke off relations with the bishop of Trier and all others associated with the enquiries and the trial, and restored communion only when the emperor promised to stop the persecution of the Priscillianists.[9]


A stand-off ensued between the Empire and the Church. St. John Chrysostom later wrote that executing heretics was an "inexpiable crime".

In the ninth century A.D., for the last time before modernity, a Pontiff raised his voice against the death penalty, in a letter to the newly converted Prince of the Bulgars in Eastern Europe:


The Responses of Pope Nicholas I to the Questions of the Bulgars A.D. 866


Chapter XXV.

You claim that it is part of the custom of your country that guards always stand on the alert between your country and the boundaries of others; and if a slave or freeman [manages to] flee somehow through this watch, the guards are killed without hesitation because of this. Now then, you are asking us, what we think about this practice. One should look through the laws concerning this matter.

Nevertheless, far be it from your minds that you, who have acknowledged so pious a God and Lord, now judge so harshly, especially since it is more fitting that, just as hitherto you put people to death with ease, so from now on you should lead those whom you can not to death but to life.

For the blessed apostle Paul, who was initially an abusive persecutor and breathed threats and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord,[cf. Acts 9:1] later sought mercy and, converted by a divine revelation, not only did not impose the death penalty on anyone but also wished to be anathema for the brethren [cf. Rom. 9:3] and was prepared to spend and be spent most willingly for the souls of the faithful.[cf. II Cor. 12:15] In the same way, after you have been called by the election of God and illuminated by his light, you should no longer desire deaths but should without hesitation recall everyone to the life of the body as well as the soul, when any opportunity is found. [cf. Rom. 7:6] And just as Christ led you back from the eternal death in which you were gripped, to eternal life, so you yourself should attempt to save not only the innocent, but also the guilty from the end of death.



(continued....)
 
Last edited:

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
But sadly, alas, the stance of Pope Nicholas the Great did not long persist after his age - medieval theologians and pontiffs arrived overwhelmingly at a new 'consensus' which justified capital punishment on the basis of justice.

In the patristic and medieval scholastic tradition, positive law arises from 'natural law' and is an application of 'reason' to concrete circumstances. It is not something divinely imposed and immutable.

The Church changed its attitude between 1184-1253. In this period, the papacy decided to collaborate with States that had declared heresy as a capital offence tantamount to treason by handing condemned heretics over to civil authorities for execution, a practice that contemporary popes since Vatican II have apologised for as a deviance from the way of Christ.

Our doctrine concerning the sanctity of human life, from cradle to grave, thus became 'perverted' in the course of history - as evidenced by the Roman and Spanish Inquisitions.

Pope Francis, following in the footsteps of his predecessor John Paul II, has belatedly corrected things and returned to the primitive Christian doctrine:


Fratelli tutti (3 October 2020) | Francis


There is yet another way to eliminate others, one aimed not at countries but at individuals. It is the death penalty. Saint John Paul II stated clearly and firmly that the death penalty is inadequate from a moral standpoint and no longer necessary from that of penal justice. There can be no stepping back from this position. Today we state clearly that “the death penalty is inadmissible” and the Church is firmly committed to calling for its abolition worldwide.

From the earliest centuries of the Church, some were clearly opposed to capital punishment. Lactantius, for example, held that “there ought to be no exception at all; that it is always unlawful to put a man to death.” Pope Nicholas I urged that efforts be made “to free from the punishment of death not only each of the innocent, but all the guilty as well.”

During the trial of the murderers of two priests, Saint Augustine asked the judge not to take the life of the assassins with this argument: “We do not object to your depriving these wicked men of the freedom to commit further crimes. Our desire is rather that justice be satisfied without the taking of their lives or the maiming of their bodies in any part . . . Do not let the atrocity of their sins feed a desire for vengeance, but desire instead to heal the wounds which those deeds have inflicted on their souls.”

...

For us, this prophecy took flesh in Christ Jesus who, seeing a disciple tempted to violence, said firmly: “Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword” (Mt 26:52). These words echoed the ancient warning: “I will require a reckoning for human life. Whoever sheds the blood of a man, by man shall his blood be shed” (Gen 9:5-6). Jesus’ reaction, which sprang from his heart, bridges the gap of the centuries and reaches the present as an enduring appeal.

...

Let us keep in mind that “not even a murderer loses his personal dignity, and God himself pledges to guarantee this”. The firm rejection of the death penalty shows to what extent it is possible to recognize the inalienable dignity of every human being and to accept that he or she has a place in this universe. If I do not deny that dignity to the worst of criminals, I will not deny it to anyone. I will give everyone the possibility of sharing this planet with me, despite all our differences
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There is nothing in the New Testament, nor for that matter the early apostolic tradition, which mandates - in any sense - 'temporal' punishments such as the death penalty.
Is there anything in the New Testament that suggests that Christians would have so much power in their surrounding society that they would be acting as judges or legislators?

When I read the New Testament, I generally get the impression that the authors just take it as given that Christians will be persecuted outsiders, living on the fringes of society and without political power.

I certainly can't think of any passages that say anything like "Christian judges, when you're ruling on criminals cases, make sure you NEVER issue death sentences." The Bible seems to assume that Christians wouldn't be secular judges at all.

All that being said, the story of Ananais and Sapphira in Acts can certainly be read as a story of Christians carrying out death sentences (though I recognize that this isn't the only interpretation), so that passage can be taken as an endorsement of capital punishment at least in certain situations (e.g. skimping on tithes).
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes...he is so young. This video is so heartbreaking.

There are so many factors that determine a person's actions. From all accounts this was a disturbed individual from childhood, who enjoyed seeing living things suffer. I am wondering if his psychological issues can even be addressed?
His brother's words indicate great remorse at the way he treated his younger brother through his sad childhood.

But who on earth should own a mass assault rifle at age 18? How can America wonder why there are so many mass killings that are so out proportion to the rest of the world? Something could be done, but it would require a complete change of mindset.....not really something anyone can alter from outside....it has to come from within. I doubt it ever will. Its a moronic love affair IMO.

In today's world things are no longer black or white. In the Bible, God's laws were simple....if the killing was premeditated, the death penalty applied, but if it was a spur of the moment action done in the heat of anger or accidentally, the law reflected the difference between murder and manslaughter. That is no longer the case....there are so many variables and a host of money hungry lawyers waiting to be employed. Justice is sacrificed on the alter of mammon, apparently...?

I would only advocate for the death penalty under certain circumstances. The state of the legal system would be a real overriding factor......and how many innocent people have been executed over the years. I'd rather allow God to do the judging...
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The thread title is taken from a NGO, Hands off Cain which has been fighting for the abolition of death penalty.
Especially because in certain parts of the world, many innocent people are executed for reasons we Westerners disapprove of. Adultery, apostasy, homosexuality, etc.
But speaking of the West, the US have been doing a great job trying to limit the cases where death penalty is applied.

I am curious about your opinions.:)

Absolutely not. I disagree with capitol punishment. It's revenge. In the U.S. family has the option of siting in on the execution How Lethal Injection Works. Ideally to get closure.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
...we don't get to pick-and-choose which human beings are worthy of that inalienable right [of life].
If murderers choose.....why not?
Did not a murderer choose a person to die?

People should have it impressed on them that vile actions have vile repercussions!

If someone disregards another person's rights, then their own rights should be disregarded to the same degree.

That just seems like justice, to me.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Do you agree with Capital Punishment?

In some cases:
1) IF there is a person who is going to nuke the world (known for a fact) unless killed, then I have no problem with him being killed
2) ....

So you believe that there is some way that you can see the future, that you can "know for a fact" that something which has not yet happened, will.

You sure?
No. I know for sure even, that @stvdv can NOT see the future and "know for a fact" that something not yet happened, will happen

I just answered the question in the OP. My answer did not say nor imply that I know, I just said "IF .. known for a fact ... THEN I have no problem"

My answer does imply (the way I phrased it), that it might be most unlikely that I agree with Capital Punishment, given my almost impossible criterium
 
Last edited:
Top