Hands up who believes in the Trinity!

[Scuba Pete]

I most emphatically disagree. I would take Jesus over Selassie any time.

 

[michel]

Perhaps, but I don't think any of the "Books" had titles. These were later added by scribes. I think we'd both contend for the prophecy of the scripture came not at any time by the will of men. I must say I do find a "trinity" in the bible but its an evil one spoken of in Revelations. The Dragon, The Beast, and the False Prophet. Do these correspond with the trinity figures the trinitarians preach? Yes they do. They could be the same imo, we just don't fully know yet until the prophecy fullfills it's time. Seriously though, something is amiss when the "worlds" theologians practice a type of categorization separating the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, and Luke as "synoptic Gospels". They have purposely made a contrast to the Gospel of John. I see this as a way for them to use this to accentuate alleged discrepancies between the other three and on top of that, to group them in this fashion is a tool to support their(theologians) theories, for instance, the "trinity".

True blood,

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.​

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This infernal trio (that of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet), perhaps thinking to emulate the Holy Trinity and still hoping to defeat the Triune God, will meet here in an urgent council, knowing their time is short. The devil's angels will already have been defeated by the heavenly angels (Revelation 12:7-9), so they will know these demonic hosts cannot prevail alone. Their one desperate hope is to augment these spirit-armies with the remaining human hosts. All these demons of hell, evidently directed by three chief angels in the Satanic hierarchy, will soon be sent out to persuade the nations to send their armies (and all the conscripted civilians they can muster) off to Israel to do battle with the Lord Jesus when He returns.
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12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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At this time of Jewish persecution, the archangel Michael will "stand up" for them (Daniel 12:1), and this will result in a great war in heaven--probably in the atmospheric heaven, which had been Satan's domain, where the Lord has met with His redeemed and raptured saints. There Satan and his angels will be defeated and cast permanently down to the earth (Revelation 12:9). How this war will be fought has not been revealed, but both faithful and fallen angels have tremendous energies and powers, of which humans have little comprehension.
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12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.​

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

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Appropriately, and providentially, this is the central verse in the book of Revelation. The dragon is here identified as the serpent of Eden (Genesis 3:1), as the Satan who tested Job (Job 1:6), and as the Devil who tested Jesus (Matthew 4:1). See Revelation 20:2 for a similar description.​

Satan had long ago been cast out of his heavenly authority as the anointed cherub (Ezekiel 28:14-17), though he still has access to God as "the accuser of our brethren" (Revelation 12:10). Even that access will end when he is defeated by Michael; from then on, he and his angels will be limited to the earth alone, where he will still desperately try to overthrow God.​

As the great deceiver, Satan has deceived the whole world with the great lie with which he evidently deceived himself in the beginning--namely, that God is not really the Creator, Sustainer, and Judge of all things, and that, consequently, both men and angels can reject His Word, rebel against His rule and ultimately aspire to be "gods" themselves. This lie finds its only rationale in the false premise of evolution, the idea that the universe always existed or exists independently of a Creator and is able to evolve itself into higher and higher orders of being. This lie may take the form of either atheism or pantheism, but both deny God and His revealed truth of special creation. With it, Satan has deceived the whole world, in every age and culture since the creation (1 John 5:19; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4).​

 

[Scott1]

pardone on the ignorante
Is this position a personal one of one supported by the RCC, or all churches for that matter?

I don't know if it's supported by all churches, but it is by mine...

 

[blueman]

I'll go along with that. So, do you see the words "essence" and "substance" as being synonymous?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to get a handle on what Trinitarians really believe about God, and most of my arguments against this doctrine go back to the use of the words "essence" and "substance." If we are speaking of nothing more than God's non-physical attributes (his love, grace, knowledge, power, etc.), then I'm okay with the use of the word "essence" being used to describe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

However, I wonder if that's how the writers of the Creeds were actually using these words. At the time the Nicene Creed was being formulated, one of the big issues was whether the Father and the Son were "homoousios" (of the same substance) or "homoousia" (of like substance). To me, it sounds as if they were arguing the physical makeup of the Father and the Son. What do you think?

I am not sure what these authors were ultimately referring to, but since The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, were not physical beings, it would be hard to comprehend based on that fact alone. I believe all have the same attributes (as mentioned previously) and sprititual makeup, if that makes sense.

 

[Katzpur]

I am not sure what these authors were ultimately referring to, but since The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, were not physical beings, it would be hard to comprehend based on that fact alone. I believe all have the same attributes (as mentioned previously) and sprititual makeup, if that makes sense.

Well, it would make sense if your first statement were true. Am I understanding you wrong, or do you not believe that Son was a physical being? If you believe He was, and believe He ascended into heaven in bodily form, where is His body now?

 

[Katzpur]

I don't know if it's supported by all churches, but it is by mine...

Obviously, it's not supported by mine. According to my Church's doctrine, no one will be able to claim ignorance by the time the Final Judgment comes around. That way, all will be judged according to the same standard.

 

[blueman]

Well, it would make sense if your first statement were true. Am I understanding you wrong, or do you not believe that Son was a physical being? If you believe He was, and believe He ascended into heaven in bodily form, where is His body now?

I do not believe the Son is a physical being now. I believe when He ascended into heaven, his body was transformed to it's original state prior to coming down to earth as a physical being through the virgin birth.

 

[true blood]

I most emphatically disagree. I would take Jesus over Selassie any time.

Whatever. Those who believe in a triune God are under the influence of the False Prophet, as fortold in scripture.

 

[Scott1]

Whatever. Those who believe in a triune God are under the influence of the False Prophet, as fortold in scripture.

It was "fortold", eh? :biglaugh:

Who is this False Prophet you speak of?

 

[true blood]

Who is this False Prophet you speak of?

Your "Holy Spirit" type thing in the trinity. Oh, and I miss-spelled foretold, that's funny, huh.

 

[Scuba Pete]

What prophet spoke of a "triune God". That sounds like a singer or something!

 

[true blood]

Blind Willie Johnson

 

[Scuba Pete]

The Blind leading the blind, eh?

 

[true blood]

The guy wrote a song about John the Revelator. Nevermind.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I thought it sounded like a singer.

 

[jeffrey]

The Blind leading the blind, eh?

LOL! NetDoc, your good! He WAS a singer! And True Blood, I think your a little confused here. Blind Willie was a singer for profit, not prophet.

 

[Scuba Pete]

On a side note, do you think he'll ever change his tune?

 

[jeffrey]

On a side note, do you think he'll ever change his tune?

LOL! I don't want to ..harp... on it. but I heard his widow was well taken care of when he died. He had a great prophet sharing plan where he worked.