Happy Passover, where is the evidence?

[1137]

Boring family time after Sedar, thought this would be an entertaining topic. So where is a shred of evidence anything we just discussed about the exodus is true? Also, which Egyptian king is supposedly the one Moses confronted?

 

[ChristineES]

Happy Passover! I am not going to answer your question, but I have celebrated the Seder meal before and I certainly did not find it boring.

 

[TheKnight]

Boring family time after Sedar, thought this would be an entertaining topic. So where is a shred of evidence anything we just discussed about the exodus is true? Also, which Egyptian king is supposedly the one Moses confronted?

I would argue that the evidence is the continued existence of the Jews. Despite the odds being largely against them, both in terms of rote statistics and in general historic progression, they continue to exist and maintain a strong influence on the world conscious despite their small numbers.

The evidence is in the unbroken chain of Jews who, year after year, sit down and tell the story which explains why this night is different from all other nights. The evidence is that despite the fact that major world powers have sought to have them eliminated, they continue to survive and thrive in the societies they are in.

One would wonder how such a tenacious people continues to be in such strong fashion when they should not be. Well, if you ask them they'll tell you about that time that their ancestors all stood at Sinai and received the Torah. Whether or not you believe it is up to you. It's not supposed to be the sort of thing we all sit down and rationally conclude "Well hey, look at that. Let's go be observant."

Rather, it is the sort of thing that is supposed to seem unlikely and improbable. We are supposed to seek out a rational explanation and upon finding none, we are to ask them "How is it that you have persisted?" To which they should respond "Let us tell you the story of our ancestors who were brought from Egypt."

Whether you believe them or not is really up to you.

Analogously, a man is strong and you ask the man "how did you become strong?" he will respond with whatever method it was that he used to become strong. You can either follow his method and become similarly strong or continue to disbelieve in search of some other evidence. The Jews persist, and generation after generation they have been asked their method. Generation after generation their answer is the same.

Chag Sameach!

 

[1137]

Happy Passover! I am not going to answer your question, but I have celebrated the Seder meal before and I certainly did not find it boring.

Of course it isn't! The time after is haha.

 

[InChrist]

I would argue that the evidence is the continued existence of the Jews. Despite the odds being largely against them, both in terms of rote statistics and in general historic progression, they continue to exist and maintain a strong influence on the world conscious despite their small numbers.

The evidence is in the unbroken chain of Jews who, year after year, sit down and tell the story which explains why this night is different from all other nights. The evidence is that despite the fact that major world powers have sought to have them eliminated, they continue to survive and thrive in the societies they are in.

One would wonder how such a tenacious people continues to be in such strong fashion when they should not be. Well, if you ask them they'll tell you about that time that their ancestors all stood at Sinai and received the Torah. Whether or not you believe it is up to you. It's not supposed to be the sort of thing we all sit down and rationally conclude "Well hey, look at that. Let's go be observant."

Rather, it is the sort of thing that is supposed to seem unlikely and improbable. We are supposed to seek out a rational explanation and upon finding none, we are to ask them "How is it that you have persisted?" To which they should respond "Let us tell you the story of our ancestors who were brought from Egypt."

Whether you believe them or not is really up to you.

Analogously, a man is strong and you ask the man "how did you become strong?" he will respond with whatever method it was that he used to become strong. You can either follow his method and become similarly strong or continue to disbelieve in search of some other evidence. The Jews persist, and generation after generation they have been asked their method. Generation after generation their answer is the same.

Chag Sameach!

This is an excellent response.

 

[Dena]

So where is a shred of evidence anything we just discussed about the exodus is true?

I don't know that it's relevant. Does it really matter to us either way?

 

[1137]

Oh no it's quite irrelevant whether it's historically accurate or not. The story holds the same meaning anyways..This was more for non-Jews than Jews, or at least Jews who take things literally or accept it as historical (many of those at the table tonight still do), but everyone's so touchy.

 

[Caladan]

Oh no it's quite irrelevant whether it's historically accurate or not. The story holds the same meaning anyways..This was more for non-Jews than Jews, or at least Jews who take things literally or accept it as historical (many of those at the table tonight still do), but everyone's so touchy.

I don't think anyone has been overly sensitive about this, and TheKnight gave one hell of an answer, that even as an archaeologist who was indoctrinated to doubt the whole Exodus event I'll happily settle for.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you already created a thread about this very topic a short while ago, so... ma nishtana?

 

[WyattDerp]

If people keep telling each other a story because others before them told that story, then even telling that story for a million years proves nothing. If that's a "hell of an answer" I'd say there isn't even anything to work with here for adults. Except maybe to leave some food for thought:

From the totalitarian point of view, history is something to be created rather than learned.

 

[Dena]

I hope I didn't sound "touchy". Not at all. I just meant that it matters not whether it literally happened. What matters is that we continue the telling, the recreating, the imaging because there are still lessons to be learned and shared. It is truth. It maybe not be truth in the way we usually speak of it but it is a truth.

 

[Reverend Rick]

but everyone's so touchy.

You struck a nerve with me with your title. Perhaps if you toned down your contempt just a little people would respond better.

I love examining the truth and learning more facts. It's the attitude you have for those who do not share your opinion you might want to consider as well as the time of year.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Boring family time after Sedar, thought this would be an entertaining topic. So where is a shred of evidence anything we just discussed about the exodus is true? Also, which Egyptian king is supposedly the one Moses confronted?

There is a correlation between people on Holiday, boredom, arguments and family rows.

It happens in all religions and none. Once the "Main event is over" people rub each other up the wrong way. They are not used to prolonged family contact with little to break the monotony. After all we do not choose our families we my Love them, but not actually Like them very much.

The historical truth of Exodus or the Crucifixion might both contain a mixture of fact and fiction well supported by tradition. But the boring time that follows such festivals, is also a time of reflection.
We hear again, innumerable times over, the traditions and beliefs and follow through the same remembrances and ceremonies.
For the young this can have the excitement of taking a leading part for the first time.
What it does more than anything else, is to cement every one taking part into the fellowship of the tradition.

These things have been going on unbroken for some two thousand years for Christians, and for far far longer for the Jews. It helps to make us what we are,
whether we believe or not.

None of this depends on an "Exact historical Truth"

 

[1137]

I don't think anyone has been overly sensitive about this, and TheKnight gave one hell of an answer, that even as an archaeologist who was indoctrinated to doubt the whole Exodus event I'll happily settle for.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you already created a thread about this very topic a short while ago, so... ma nishtana?

Did I? I thought I started a thread in the Judaism DIR about if it matters whether the story is accurate or not. And TheKnight did give an interesting answer that didn't really address the question, and as a fellow anthropologist I am concerned with acceptance of it.

 

[1137]

There's no contempt or rubbing each other the wrong way, such jumps fall under "touchy". As should be expected after a year plus here I suppose.

 

[Koldo]

One would wonder how such a tenacious people continues to be in such strong fashion when they should not be.

One must wonder why one would assume that such people should not be in a strong fashion.

 

[outhouse]

, and as a fellow anthropologist I am concerned with acceptance of it.

Israelites factually evolved from Canaanites as far as anthropology is considered. [Dever and Finklestien]


If you want to discuss the possibility of a historical core to the Exodus legend, well thats not athropology.

Transjordan nomadic settlers going in and out of Egypt are possibilities, as well as a escaped leader who led a small band to a place where other semetic settlers were establshing a community. But these would be distant memories at best that do not reflect anthropology.

 

[ChristineES]

Sometimes I wonder if it's polite to continually ask people why the believe in things that can't be proved. No one seemed touchy or anything, but I can hear a collective sigh of boredom with someone saying 'Here we go again, do we really need to defend why we follow certain traditions, certain holy days, certain beliefs?"

 

[Caladan]

If people keep telling each other a story because others before them told that story, then even telling that story for a million years proves nothing. If that's a "hell of an answer" I'd say there isn't even anything to work with here for adults. Except maybe to leave some food for thought:

And there is your answer:

Sometimes I wonder if it's polite to continually ask people why the believe in things that can't be proved. No one seemed touchy or anything, but I can hear a collective sigh of boredom with someone saying 'Here we go again, do we really need to defend why we follow certain traditions, certain holy days, certain beliefs?"

People don't celebrate the passover simply because they literally want to relive the emancipation of Hebrew slaves from the Pharaoh's grip. But because they want to unite with their families and celebrate the concept of freedom from bondage through the ages. The story does not need to be historically factual to the letter, it needs to pass the message. I guess one needs to be a little more visionary and a little less square and uptight to be able to enjoy it.

 

[ChristineES]

And there is your answer:


People don't celebrate the Passover simply because they literally want to relive the emancipation of Hebrew slaves from the Pharaoh's grip. But because they want to unite with their families and celebrate the concept of freedom from bondage through the ages. The story does not need to be historically factual to the letter, it needs to pass the message. I guess one needs to be a little more visionary and a little less square and uptight to be able to enjoy it.

Yes. That is why people have traditions, holidays, etc. To connect with family. To hang on to their roots. Whether they believe it literally or not is not really the issue.

 

[1137]

Yes. That is why people have traditions, holidays, etc. To connect with family. To hang on to their roots. Whether they believe it literally or not is not really the issue.

That's all great, that's what I do, and I hate to burst your bubble but the fact is that at least one person here probably believes all such stories are historically accurate, and as stated this was for them. But thanks for the input!