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hard being an atheist

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Canadian law specifically recognizes "promotion of religion" as a "charitable purpose" all on its own.

So it does.

Is there any country on the planet without some form of indigenous religion?

Of course not. But neither do Christians... yet we have them, paid for at taxpayer expense.

Some countries don't fund religion at all, but these countries are dirt-poor and suffer from social problems much worse than religion at taxpayer's expense. Canada is probably best country in which to live, so don't knock it.

It's not a theocracy, but religious belief pervades our country in sometimes surprising ways.

You can't ask for there to be no religious belief at all. You can't get all Richard Dawkins about it. That's unreasonable.

Can you imagine atheists ever being so audacious as to decide that non-belief in God should be upheld as a foundational principle of the entire nation in one of its highest laws? I can't.

Atheists should start their own country where non-belief in God can be a foundational principle. A colony. A colony of Brights, of Supers.

It's a serious enough problem in the reverse situation that on one atheist call-in show that I listen to, their stock answer when a teenage atheist asks how they should "come out" to their Christian parents is "if you feel that you might be in danger, don't do it."

If teenage atheists are comparing their plight to that of gay teens like the 4 who recently committed suicide in the US, they don't know how good they actually have it. :rolleyes:

Discrimination against atheists in Canada is nowhere near as bad as it is in other parts of the world, but there is still a double standard both in terms of societal acceptance and law: one for theists and one for atheists.

Atheists go out of their to be abrasive, stand-offish, and unlikable. They market themselves as angry people. And as the law is concerned, no on is above it. Theists don't enjoy special immunity to the law in Canada.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
So it does.

Is there any country on the planet without some form of indigenous religion?
Are you now claiming that Christianity is the indigenous religion of Canada?

Some countries don't fund religion at all, but these countries are dirt-poor and suffer from social problems much worse than religion at taxpayer's expense. Canada is probably best country in which to live, so don't knock it.
I'm quite happy to live in Canada, and I appreciate the country very much. However, this doesn't stop me from wanting to improve it.

You can't ask for there to be no religious belief at all. You can't get all Richard Dawkins about it. That's unreasonable.
I'm not asking for that.

Atheists should start their own country where non-belief in God can be a foundational principle. A colony. A colony of Brights.
I'd prefer that my actual country simply be inclusive and respectful of people of all beliefs. Canada's getting there, but it's not perfect yet.

Atheists go out of their to be abrasive, stand-offish, and unlikable. They market themselves as angry people.
I don't care what you think of me, as long as we all have equal rights.

And I think that even the worst that makes the news from prominent atheists is no more "abrasive, stand-offish and unlikable" than what's preached from the average pulpit every Sunday morning. I think that it's just because you agree with the message that you don't realize how divisive it is.

And as the law is concerned, no on is above it. Theists don't enjoy special immunity to the law in Canada.
Yes, they do. I just finished point this out to you. For instance, take the equality clause from the Charter:

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

Taken by itself, this would make taxpayer-funded public schools for one specific religion patently illegal. But this isn't the case, because of this:

29. Nothing in this Charter abrogates or derogates from any rights or privileges guaranteed by or under the Constitution of Canada in respect of denominational, separate or dissentient schools.

Theists do have special immunity from normal laws in Canada. Not all theists, but there are rights afforded to certain groups of theists that are not available to atheists.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Are you now claiming that Christianity is the indigenous religion of Canada?

No, the indigenous religion of Canada is that of the Natives. The first European explorers who came here brought Christianity with them. And that's why Christianity enjoys the status it does in Canada. But Canada is multicultural and that means we pride ourselves on having many cultures & religions active withn our borders. So in fact Canada has many indigenous religions. I'm proud to be Canadian. :D

I'm quite happy to live in Canada, and I appreciate the country very much. However, this doesn't stop me from wanting to improve it.

It shouldn't! To be honest I'm not opposed to the idea of atheists finding a better niche for themselves within the Canadian mosaic. Atheism is not culture or a religion or a language. It's not a skin-colour or a disability. So what exactly is it? What is the collective atheist identity? What is the glue that binds you all together?

I'd prefer that my actual country simply be inclusive and respectful of people of all beliefs. Canada's getting there, but it's not perfect yet.

Agreed.

I don't care what you think of me, as long as we all have equal rights.

I don't know how atheism and theism can coexist side-by-side without sparks flying. :shrug:

And I think that even the worst that makes the news from prominent atheists is no more "abrasive, stand-offish and unlikable" than what's preached from the average pulpit every Sunday morning. I think that it's just because you agree with the message that you don't realize how divisive it is.

There are messages from many pulpits with which I do not agree. The condemnation of homosexuals, for example. My church doesn't talk about homosexuals, and I am grateful for that. The pastors at my parish, Chartwell Baptist Church do not preach hate-- nothing homophobic or racist or sexist-- thank God for that! :D

Taken by itself, this would make taxpayer-funded public schools for one specific religion patently illegal.

Ontario has a Catholic school board (support by tax-dollars). Private schools as fas I know can teach whatever they want but without funding from the Province of Ontario. I passed throgh the entire Catholic education system in Ontario and never gave a second thought as to other religious/non-religious groups who might not appreciate this.

Theists do have special immunity from normal laws in Canada. Not all theists, but there are rights afforded to certain groups of theists that are not available to atheists.

What are they? I honestly don't know. Please do tell.
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
Hard? I disagree. I tolerate my families' religious belief (catholicism) and they tolerate my atheism. In the end we still deep care about each other and have a fun time each time we get together.
I do know of people that "think" they are atheists because god "failed" them. In other words they are just ****** off christians.
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
I do know of people that "think" they are atheists because god "failed" them. In other words they are just ****** off christians.

Yes, that is my thinking also. Especially if the athest in question displays a vast knowledge of Scripture.

It's a stereotype but it's true.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is my thinking also. Especially if the athest in question displays a vast knowledge of Scripture.

It's a stereotype but it's true.

I have a rather large knowledge of scripture as do most atheists I know.

I have never been a Christian or theist for that matter.

In fact at least one study shows that atheists have a better knowledge of scripture than theists in general.

Your stereotype doesn`t work.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Then there is the death aspect of atheism, the only thing more traumatic then watching someone pass away knowing that they are not going to be better off, is knowing that they are afraid of vanishing from existance and using religion to calm that fear, but to see them die in denial ... a denial born from fear ... makes me saddest of all.

Why is that traumatic?



At times we need to think like a lawyer--think what's useful or pragmatic instead of what's in consonant with the world of appearance but detrimental to out health and well-being....

I think what you bring up is an important point.

From an Atheist point of view, there's not really a reason not to be religious. So you reject some beliefs about reality? Does it change much? Not really.

Theists do have special immunity from normal laws in Canada. Not all theists, but there are rights afforded to certain groups of theists that are not available to atheists.

That's because Atheists don't need those rights. Atheists often complain about certain benefits that the religious are given by the government. It's ridiculous. Atheists don't need the vast majority of those rights.

Atheists don't need Atheist schools because Atheism isn't a lifestyle, it's not a belief system, it's one belief about one religious concept that is usually founded on emotional arguments rather than rational ones.

A church, often times, is a major force of charity in the surrounding cities and neighborhoods in which the church resides. Atheists don't have anything like that that aren't just regular charities. And a secular non-theistic charity gets tax exemption too.

I get so sick of hearing Atheists complain about "rights" they wouldn't use anyways. It's sort of like you're complaining that Atheism isn't like religion, and it sounds like your just jealous that religious groups get rights that Atheists wouldn't use anyways.

Having private schools serves a very specific purpose. In most cases it is to create a certain environment in which children are raised so that particular beliefs and lifestyles can be put forth. Everyone has the right to raise their child in a particular environment that they see as being safer or more beneficial to their children.

So please, stop complaining. The rights are available to those who would use them. It's not like their there for the specific greedy purpose of a few power hungry people. Do power hungry greedy people abuse those rights? Sure! But that's not why the rights are there in the first place. Many Atheists, in their clouded emotional anger and irrationality, seem to miss that.
 

+Xausted

Well-Known Member
boo hoo springs to mind.
Its not hard being an ahteist. I think it must be harder in this day and age being religious. I am very unsure of your discussion on why it is so hard. I find it very easy :)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't know how atheism and theism can coexist side-by-side without sparks flying. :shrug:
All I want is full legal equality for atheists. If theists plan to stand in the way of that, then IMO sparks should fly.

However, if theists can be reasonable, then I think we can figure out how to get along just fine.

There are messages from many pulpits with which I do not agree. The condemnation of homosexuals, for example. My church doesn't talk about homosexuals, and I am grateful for that. The pastors at my parish, Chartwell Baptist Church do not preach hate-- nothing homophobic or racist or sexist-- thank God for that! :D
Really? I find that surprising, in light of an article that was shared with me the other day:

There are no Baptist churches in Canada, Stueart knows of, that openly welcome gays. Presbyterians, evangelical Lutherans, Anglicans and Episcopalians have all started opening their doors, said Stueart.
“Why can’t the Baptist church?”


[...]

When asked about Riverdale Baptist Church’s policy on homosexuals, pastor Anderson directed the News to the “culture statement,” on the Canadian Baptist Ministries’ website.

... but that wasn't really what I was getting at. Think back to all the sermons that talked in glowing terms about things like the value of faith or the necessity of prayer; these denigrate and dismiss my point of view just as much as Dawkins or others denigrate and dismiss your point of view when they talk about the worthlessness of faith or the futility of prayer.

Ontario has a Catholic school board (support by tax-dollars). Private schools as fas I know can teach whatever they want but without funding from the Province of Ontario. I passed throgh the entire Catholic education system in Ontario and never gave a second thought as to other religious/non-religious groups who might not appreciate this.
That doesn't make the current situation any less equitable.

What are they? I honestly don't know. Please do tell.
Well, I touched on special taxpayer-funded schools. Also, theists get special tax subsidies for their private clubs, and organizations can discriminate against atheists... for example, Scouts Canada prohibits atheists from joining as members or leaders.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That's because Atheists don't need those rights. Atheists often complain about certain benefits that the religious are given by the government. It's ridiculous. Atheists don't need the vast majority of those rights.
Let me make sure that my position is clear: I don't want the rights afforded to religion; I just want equality. Religious people don't need the special exemptions and benefits either, so I think the best solution would be just to get rid of them.

Atheists don't need Atheist schools because Atheism isn't a lifestyle, it's not a belief system, it's one belief about one religious concept that is usually founded on emotional arguments rather than rational ones.
Theists don't need their own schools either... at least not paid for by public funds.

The system we have here, where Catholics get their own publicly-funded schools and everyone else gets the secular public school system, is an anachronism. It's the product of a time where all public schools were religious, and there was a very real problem with Catholics being subject to discrimination and proselytizing in Protestant "public" schools. Catholics objected to things like teachers paid for with their tax money telling their children that the Pope is the Antichrist (and rightly so, IMO), so a separate school system was set up to protect them.

Since then, public schools have become secular. You no longer get schools trying to convert children to Protestant denominations or denigrate their Catholic faith. The separate schools have outlived their usefulness, yet we still have them, still providing privilege to one religion at the expense of everyone.

A church, often times, is a major force of charity in the surrounding cities and neighborhoods in which the church resides. Atheists don't have anything like that that aren't just regular charities. And a secular non-theistic charity gets tax exemption too.
Great - I agree that any church engaging in good works like what you describe should get charitable status. But let it be on the strength of those good works, not on the mere fact that they're a church.

Under Canadian law, "promotion of religion" is considered one of the "charitable causes" that allows an organization to get charitable status. IOW, a church can do no actual charity and instead devote all of their efforts to proselytizing, or just seal itself off as a private "god club", and it would be entitled to charitable status under the current rules. Do you think this is appropriate?

I get so sick of hearing Atheists complain about "rights" they wouldn't use anyways. It's sort of like you're complaining that Atheism isn't like religion, and it sounds like your just jealous that religious groups get rights that Atheists wouldn't use anyways.
No, I'm ****** off that I end up footing the bill. Be as religious as you want - I'm fine with that. Just don't expect me to subsidize your religion through tax credits or government funds.

Having private schools serves a very specific purpose. In most cases it is to create a certain environment in which children are raised so that particular beliefs and lifestyles can be put forth. Everyone has the right to raise their child in a particular environment that they see as being safer or more beneficial to their children.
I'm not talking about private schools. I'm talking about taxpayer-funded religious schools.

Here in Ontario and several other provinces, we have two parallel systems, both run by and paid for by the government: the normal secular public schools, and a special Catholic separate school system. Only Catholics are allowed to send their children to these Catholic schools. Their curriculum is adjusted based on Catholic teachings and includes religious instruction and indoctrination in the Catholic faith. Both are entirely funded by taxpayer money. Parents do not pay any extra fees at all to send their children to a Catholic school.

That's what I'm talking about. Normally, this would be a complete Charter (our equivalent to the Bill of Rights) violation, but because of that "out" clause that I mentioned before, it's rendered legal.
 

St Giordano Bruno

Well-Known Member
Personally the only thing that is relevant with atheism with the death question is that whatever happens after they die they do not believe that they are going to see God or some other supernatural deity on the other side. Could be reincarnation or could be Nietzsche’s eternal return, but coming face to face with God is definitely not one of them.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Let me make sure that my position is clear: I don't want the rights afforded to religion; I just want equality. Religious people don't need the special exemptions and benefits either, so I think the best solution would be just to get rid of them.
I think that it depends on the work their involved in. And I don't think it should apply to only religious people.

Theists don't need their own schools either... at least not paid for by public funds.

The system we have here, where Catholics get their own publicly-funded schools and everyone else gets the secular public school system, is an anachronism. It's the product of a time where all public schools were religious, and there was a very real problem with Catholics being subject to discrimination and proselytizing in Protestant "public" schools. Catholics objected to things like teachers paid for with their tax money telling their children that the Pope is the Antichrist (and rightly so, IMO), so a separate school system was set up to protect them.

Since then, public schools have become secular. You no longer get schools trying to convert children to Protestant denominations or denigrate their Catholic faith. The separate schools have outlived their usefulness, yet we still have them, still providing privilege to one religion at the expense of everyone.
I, personally, don't agree with the use of public funds on private schooling, but I don't agree with publicly funded education in any sense.

On the other hand, I understand the argument that if the government is going to publicly fund education at all for all children, but some parents want their children educated in a religious environment, then I don't see the problem so long as the school follows educational guidelines set by the state. I don't see why there can't be a compromise.

Great - I agree that any church engaging in good works like what you describe should get charitable status. But let it be on the strength of those good works, not on the mere fact that they're a church.

Under Canadian law, "promotion of religion" is considered one of the "charitable causes" that allows an organization to get charitable status. IOW, a church can do no actual charity and instead devote all of their efforts to proselytizing, or just seal itself off as a private "god club", and it would be entitled to charitable status under the current rules. Do you think this is appropriate?
Personally? No. I wouldn't vote for something like that. But I understand the logic behind it. Religion, even if it isn't actively involved in what we would traditionally call charitable, does help people and communities. A lot of times, people will change their behavior for the better when they become religious.

This occurs often enough to say that it is beneficial to give religions incentive to proselytize or conduct religious activities.

I personally don't believe in a government that operates in that manner and thus wouldn't vote for that sort of thing, but I wouldn't be upset if it passed.

No, I'm ****** off that I end up footing the bill. Be as religious as you want - I'm fine with that. Just don't expect me to subsidize your religion through tax credits or government funds.
But see, you foot the bill for education anyways. As long as the children are educated, why does it matter the environment in which that occurs? The only reason I could see a cause for anger is if only select private schools were endorsed and not others.

It's a lot like what has been considered in California. Because religious people also pay taxes that go towards education, and yet often do not use public education, they should get vouchers allowing their children to go to private schools.

That makes sense to me. It's not like you pay taxes and they don't. If you both pay taxes toward that end, then you should both get to decide in which environment your children are educated, religious or not.

I'm not talking about private schools. I'm talking about taxpayer-funded religious schools.

Here in Ontario and several other provinces, we have two parallel systems, both run by and paid for by the government: the normal secular public schools, and a special Catholic separate school system. Only Catholics are allowed to send their children to these Catholic schools. Their curriculum is adjusted based on Catholic teachings and includes religious instruction and indoctrination in the Catholic faith. Both are entirely funded by taxpayer money. Parents do not pay any extra fees at all to send their children to a Catholic school.

That's what I'm talking about. Normally, this would be a complete Charter (our equivalent to the Bill of Rights) violation, but because of that "out" clause that I mentioned before, it's rendered legal.

I don't see why it would bother you unless the Catholic parents aren't paying the same proportion of taxes towards education costs.

If you both have no choice but to pay taxes that go toward education, then the Catholics shouldn't have to pay extra to send their children to the schools they want. Unless they are exempt from the taxes that go towards education.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think that it depends on the work their involved in. And I don't think it should apply to only religious people.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

I, personally, don't agree with the use of public funds on private schooling, but I don't agree with publicly funded education in any sense.

On the other hand, I understand the argument that if the government is going to publicly fund education at all for all children, but some parents want their children educated in a religious environment, then I don't see the problem so long as the school follows educational guidelines set by the state. I don't see why there can't be a compromise.
Well, for one thing, it's horrendously inefficient.

Until recently, the province of Newfoundland had a system like that: all sorts of denominational religious schools, all paid for by public funds, and all running parallel to each other. There was tremendous wasted money and funds because of all the duplication; eventually, they realized that their system wasn't working and amalgamated all the different denominational schools into a single, public, secular system.

If we give publicly-funded religious schools to only one group or only to a few, we're discriminating. If we give it to all groups, the system quickly becomes completely unworkable. And in either case, the provision of religious schools diverts away funds that could be used to improve the quality of a single secular system.

Also, there's the matter of the proper function of government and the issue of separation of church and state. Public education is, as the name implies, a public enterprise. Is it a proper function of a secular government to provide religious instruction and indoctrination? If we've got religious schools in the public system, then that's precisely what we're doing.

And the church-state separation issue goes both ways. For instance, a few years ago, there was a court case where a same-sex couple attending a publicly-funded Catholic school sued for the right to attend their prom. The judge ruled that because only same-sex sexual acts are prohibited by the Church (which they presumably wouldn't be engaging in at the prom itself) and not homosexuality itself, the couple's activities didn't violate Church doctrine and therefore the students should be allowed to attend.

Do you want a judge ruling on what you do and don't believe? I don't... but this sort of oversight comes with public money.

Personally? No. I wouldn't vote for something like that. But I understand the logic behind it. Religion, even if it isn't actively involved in what we would traditionally call charitable, does help people and communities. A lot of times, people will change their behavior for the better when they become religious.

This occurs often enough to say that it is beneficial to give religions incentive to proselytize or conduct religious activities.
I could say the same about auto racing. Should my marshalling club also be a charity?

It's a lot like what has been considered in California. Because religious people also pay taxes that go towards education, and yet often do not use public education, they should get vouchers allowing their children to go to private schools.

That makes sense to me. It's not like you pay taxes and they don't. If you both pay taxes toward that end, then you should both get to decide in which environment your children are educated, religious or not.
I disagree.

We don't pay education taxes as some sort of tuition fee for our own children; we pay them because a public education system is a valuable service and benefit to the community (the whole community). This is true regardless of where you personally choose to send your children to school. It's even true if you have no children at all.

I have no children. Therefore, I have no children in the public education system. When someone decides to "opt out" and send their children to a private school, they effectively put themselves in the same position as me. Why should they be able to get out of paying their fair share while I cannot?

Public schools benefit society. This is true whether you have kids who attend, your kids go somewhere else, or you have no kids at all. Because of this, it's the responsibilty of society - all of society - to pay for them.

Like most taxes, public education taxes are not a matter of a fee-for-service arrangement. When we pretend that they are for religious parents, then we're setting up an inequitable system.

I don't see why it would bother you unless the Catholic parents aren't paying the same proportion of taxes towards education costs.
It costs me money directly.

I as a non-parent pay into both systems in proportion to the number of students in each. Also, the fact that we have this second board creates extra duplication and prevents economies of scale, thereby increasing the cost for everyone. The fact that we have a Catholic board increases the cost for everyone.

If you both have no choice but to pay taxes that go toward education, then the Catholics shouldn't have to pay extra to send their children to the schools they want. Unless they are exempt from the taxes that go towards education.
I disagree. As I said before, education taxes aren't a fee-for-service, they're a tax to pay for something that benefits society as a whole. Because of this, they're the responsibilty of society as a whole, regardless of whether you're Catholic or not.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Personally the only thing that is relevant with atheism with the death question is that whatever happens after they die they do not believe that they are going to see God or some other supernatural deity on the other side. Could be reincarnation or could be Nietzsche’s eternal return, but coming face to face with God is definitely not one of them.

You mean not one of their beliefs? It is theorically possible for Atheists to face God in an hypothetical afterlife.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Because religious people also pay taxes that go towards education, and yet often do not use public education, they should get vouchers allowing their children to go to private schools.

this is the epitome of the christian right mentality. :facepalm:
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
Christians do die in peace, we have a peace and confidence that we are going to a better place. Christians look forward to the other side.
 

Amill

Apikoros
Yes of course, but I see it more like a falling person grasping at air for something to hold on to. maybe suicide bombers demonstrate they believe 100%. but in most of the family/friend debates I've had, they say it's 'nice' to believe it. It makes them seem (to me) desperate for hope, and I don't rebut them on this point because of it.

I'd rather someone die peacefully thinking something better may come than someone who is scared when they are about to go. I just want them to be happy(or at least not sad) when it's their time to go, whether they're atheist or religious or whatever. So if a person needs to believe in heaven to feel a sense of peace when they're dying, I'm happy for them.

Crocodile tears, crocodile tears.

What was it that Christopher Hitchens said about Jerry Falwell upon the latter's passing?

"It's a shame there's no hell for Falwell to go to ..."

My favorite was "if Jerry Falwell had an enema he'd be buried in a matchbox".
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
Christians do die in peace, we have a peace and confidence that we are going to a better place. Christians look forward to the other side.

dying in peace happens when you're at peace with your life...
so this is not necessarily exclusive for your kind, rather you are insulting people who are not your kind...maybe you didn't realize what you were saying
 
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