Harihara as Supreme?

[StarryNightshade]

Harihara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is there any school that believes Vishnu and Shiva as one to be the Saguna Brahman?

Or, if there isn't an actual school, would it be Vaishnavas or Shiavas who would more than likely adhere to this philosophical thought?

 

[Jainarayan]

Swaminarayan sect does. See the references in the Wiki article: Harihara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and this part of it One and the same:

Swaminarayan holds that Vishnu and Shiva are different aspects of the same God.[2][3][4] Notably, the Swaminarayan view is a minority view among Vaishnavites, but the dominant view in contemporary Hinduism which follows the Smarta view in general.[5]

 

[Vinayaka]

Harihara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is there any school that believes Vishnu and Shiva as one to be the Saguna Brahman?

Or, if there isn't an actual school, would it be Vaishnavas or Shaivas who would more than likely adhere to this philosophical thought?

Not too many. My personal take is that it was some sort of philosophical compromise attempt (much like Smarta) to eliminate feuding. I think there is much less feuding these days anyway, not due to this so much, but due to a better sense of 'You do your thing, and I'll do my thing, and we won't fight about it."

 

[StarryNightshade]

Swaminarayan sect does. See the references in the Wiki article: Harihara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and this part of it One and the same:

I once had considered the Swaminarayan sect, but couldn't get over some conflicting views. To some, Harihara is Brahman, but Swaminarayan is seperate yet also the Absolute. Or Vishu and Swaminarayan are one, and Shiva is a deva.

 

[Poeticus]

Harihara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is there any school that believes Vishnu and Shiva as one to be the Saguna Brahman?

Or, if there isn't an actual school, would it be Vaishnavas or Shiavas who would more than likely adhere to this philosophical thought?

It's a smArta-m designation, viewing Harihara
as Supreme or as the Absolute. Are you trying
to find a school to join or be a part of ? If not,
Smartism allows such a position since it is in its
very nature, that Harihara is Supreme, even
though such a notion is nowhere supported in
Shruti/Trayi-Veda-s.

And neither of the two, not Vaishnava-s nor
Shaiva-s, would adhere to viewing Harihara as
Supreme. In fact, the two have historically had
fights (debates & some violent engagements).​

 

[Vinayaka]

For purists, (Vaisnavas, Shaivas, and Shaktites alike) it goes back the sense of ... "Why? I already have everything i need."

If the God I'm worshipping now is All and in All, providing for all me needs, etc. then what take another on the side? It's like having a mistress ... or something like that.

 

[Kalidas]

For purists, (Vaisnavas, Shaivas, and Shaktites alike) it goes back the sense of ... "Why? I already have everything i need."

If the God I'm worshipping now is All and in All, providing for all me needs, etc. then what take another on the side? It's like having a mistress ... or something like that.

Yeah but is for the purist like you. Some people like the option of "not having to choose". I honestly think "why does it matter how you view the eternal Brahman" Brahman can be all and in fact IS ALL forms and all "non-forms".

I may view parashakti as the supreme "Goddesshead" with Kali being the main form she takes for my sake, while you may view things very differently.

So in the end it doesn't matter really. View the eternal Brahman how ever it pleases you, and helps you.

 

[Vinayaka]

View the eternal Brahman how ever it pleases you, and helps you.

Yup. It's a free country after all. If you like Brahman to be constantly switching forms, that's all fine. Maybe there is more variety that way. But for me, having a simple mind, I prefer just one. It allows for greater concentration. One mantra, one Guru, one Supreme God, one wife, ...

 

[StarryNightshade]

Are you trying
to find a school to join or be a part of ? If not,
Smartism allows such a position since it is in its
very nature, that Harihara is Supreme, even
though such a notion is nowhere supported in
Shruti/Trayi-Veda-s.
​

I am.

I'm drawn to the mysticism and philosophy of Shaivism, but I also like many traditions within Vaishnavism. Which is why I suppose I was hoping there would be a school (aside from Swaminaryan) that accepts Harihara.

 

[StarryNightshade]

Yup. It's a free country after all. If you like Brahman to be constantly switching forms, that's all fine. Maybe there is more variety that way. But for me, having a simple mind, I prefer just one. It allows for greater concentration. One mantra, one Guru, one Supreme God, one wife, ...

Okay, I have a question...do you not like Smartism?

Whenever Smartism, Universalism, and general non-sectarianism is brought up, you bring up your Sampraday as if you're trying to say "Oh, but not all are not like those Smartas. My school is traditional". It's kinda like when you told Aupmanyav that he didn't always need to bring up his atheism, the same principle could apply to you always bring up how much of a traditional Hindu you are compared to more liberal Hindus.

I'm not trying to be mean or rude, but I would think that's the beauty of Hinduism. Some are more traditional than others, while others are more contemporary. Neither style is more superior to others, and we shouldn't constantly assert how traditional (or non-traditional) one's school is in comparison to others.

 

[Poeticus]

I am.

I'm drawn to the mysticism and philosophy of Shaivism, but I also like many traditions within Vaishnavism. Which is why I suppose I was hoping there would be a school (aside from Swaminaryan) that accepts Harihara.

There is not a school that accepts Harihara
[as the Absolute]. There is, however, the
opportunity, theologically. What I mean is,
Smartism allows such, since it isn't a school
but rather a theological compendium.​

 

[bp789]

Swaminarayan sect does. See the references in the Wiki article: Harihara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and this part of it One and the same:

As someone that was born into the sect, I should clarify that this doesn't really happen in practice. Even though one of the sectarian scriptures says that they are one, there is still a bias towards Vishnu and his incarnations, and Shiva is still treated as a deva. Plus, there isn't a separate deity named Harihara in any Swaminarayan temples. While I've read about Vishnu and Shiva being one, I've never heard of the name Harihara in any Swaminarayan temple until I saw the Wikipedia now, which in that regards is not that accurate.

 

[Poeticus]

Okay, I have a question...do you not like Smartism?

Whenever Smartism, Universalism, and general non-sectarianism is brought up, you bring up your Sampraday as if you're trying to say "Oh, but not all are not like those Smartas. My school is traditional". It's kinda like when you told Aupmanyav that he didn't always need to bring up his atheism, the same principle could apply to you always bring up how much of a traditional Hindu you are compared to more liberal Hindus.

I'm not trying to be mean or rude, but I would think that's the beauty of Hinduism. Some are more traditional than others, while others are more contemporary. Neither style is more superior to others, and we shouldn't constantly assert how traditional (or non-traditional) one's school is in comparison to others.

I know you weren't asking me, but I want to state thus:

There is nothing wrong with Smartism. In fact, it's not even
"universalistic". Did you know that after Vaishnava-s, most
Hindus are indirectly Smarta ? It is a simple facet of various
Hindus' devotion to certain Gods/Goddesses of their choice.
For example, Jane or John Doe will have a murti of Ganesha,
and Vishnu, and Shiva, and a folk/tribal deity in her/his altar.
This, in ultimatum, is Smartic.

The notion of superiority or inferiority is not present when it
comes to such. In essence, each sect and sub-sect or specific
theology is traditional. The only instance where the subject
of overriding is present is when one or many require justification
or authentication in the theology they wish to present as valid,
after which Shruti has to be consulted for it to stay in line w/
Astika. This is also known as the Law of Shruti. This is rarely
invoked or undertaken, though. Since the general attitude
of both Astika and nAstika is live and let live.​

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are you trying to find a school to join or be a part of?

Why not just be a common main-line Hindu, worshiping all and having a chosen deity, Henotheism? Depreciating all isms.

 

[Vinayaka]

Okay, I have a question...do you not like Smartism?

I love Hinduism, period. I think, but I could be wrong, that I use 'my sampradaya' just as an example to others when it seems to me they are speaking for all of Hinduism, when in reality it's just their school that believes that. I kind of wish all statements here were prefaced with,'from my school's view' or such.

I don't dislike the Smarta Sampradaya any more than I dislike Christians or radical universalists, and I've been accused of that too. Saying you have a different belief than someone else doesn't mean you dislike them.

Smartas are also very traditional,and go way back, before Sankara. He just brought it more to the forefront, as Patanjali put into clearer words stuff that was already in the Vedas.

But yes, I do have a favorite method or school that works for me better than other methods. I think most people do.

 

[Jainarayan]

As someone that was born into the sect, I should clarify that this doesn't really happen in practice. Even though one of the sectarian scriptures says that they are one, there is still a bias towards Vishnu and his incarnations, and Shiva is still treated as a deva. Plus, there isn't a separate deity named Harihara in any Swaminarayan temples. While I've read about Vishnu and Shiva being one, I've never heard of the name Harihara in any Swaminarayan temple until I saw the Wikipedia now, which in that regards is not that accurate.

Cool, thanks for expanding on that. It's true you have to be discerning with Wikipedia; I will take the word of someone born into, or thoroughly versed in a sect or discipline. It's funny you say "there is still a bias towards Vishnu and his incarnations, and Shiva is still treated as a deva" . Inasmuch as I see them as flip sides of the same reality, I too have a bias towards Vishnu. Though I don't take the view as many Vaishnavas do that Shiva is Vishnu's greatest devotee. That implies a subservience. I don't know how one manifestation of God can be subservient to another manifestation of God.

 

[Yogi1054]

At the Shankaranarayanar Temple in the Tirunelveli District of Tamil Nadu, where the main murti is one half Siva (Shankara) and the other half Vishnu (Narayana) I'm not sure if that is the same as in the incarnation people are talking about in this thread?

 

[Jainarayan]

Did you know that after Vaishnava-s, most
Hindus are indirectly Smarta ? It is a simple facet of various
Hindus' devotion to certain Gods/Goddesses of their choice.
For example, Jane or John Doe will have a murti of Ganesha,
and Vishnu, and Shiva, and a folk/tribal deity in her/his altar.
This, in ultimatum, is Smartic.

I was going to say exactly the same thing as I was reading through here and before I came upon this post. To a large extent most Hindus are Smarta, but Smarta also entails a particular, specific practice, the panchayatana puja.

jāki rahi bhāvanā jaisi
prabhu mūrat dekhi tin taisi
(loosely, "everyone sees God in his own way").

 

[Vinayaka]

At the Shankaranarayanar Temple in the Tirunelveli District of Tamil Nadu, where the main murti is one half Siva (Shankara) and the other half Vishnu (Narayana) I'm not sure if that is the same as in the incarnation people are talking about in this thread?

I think (doesn't mean I'm right) that Shankaranrayanar is another name for Harihara. It's not the same as Swaminarayan Mission. Swaminarayan was a Guru a few centuries back, I think.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

I think (doesn't mean I'm right) that Shankaranrayanar is another name for Harihara. It's not the same as Swaminarayan Mission. Swaminarayan was a Guru a few centuries back, I think.

Yes, SwamiNarayan was a guru. It is Him that is worshipped by Swaminarayan sect, I think.

ShankarNarayan is the same as HariHara. Shankar - Hara is Shiva, Narayan - Hari is Visnu.