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harming other people

Curious George

Veteran Member
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
-Jack Handey


Humans aren't passive. I never said they lacked violence. Only a civilization that developed in an environment without any threats whatsoever, would have absolutely no tendencies towards violence. Humans fought their way to survival in a world with a thousand ways to die.

People are willing to commit violence to secure resources, to prove themselves as viable mates, and to protect themselves and others from harm. Most people also have the ability to think forward, so they can understand that, sure, killing this person to steal their stuff will get them their stuff now, but then from then on they'd be known as that person that killed someone to steal their stuff, and they wouldn't get invited to groups anymore. It would have a long-term net negative effect on their ability to get stuff. So the more natural tendency is to be friends, to acquire friends rather than stuff, because friends can work together to get a lot of stuff.

Like, wolves in a pack can commit violence on each other for personal gain, but they don't tear the whole group apart, and don't generally kill other wolves. They have to balance their need for a higher status in the group, with the health of the group as a whole, because the group keeps the members alive.

And of course ratios matter. A person who spends her lifetime being friendly and kind to everyone who lost it once and slapped someone, has very different characteristics than someone that regularly commits aggressive or violent acts and occasionally does something not entirely selfish. We wouldn't just say, "well, kindness and violence are just both part of their essences". Sure, they both have the capability for both, but those traits are not nearly represented in the same proportions, they're not evenly stuck in there just because they have both.

The question of why it's considered wrong to hurt other people is simple from an evolutionary perspective. It's a self-selecting trait in any group animal. If an orgasm has the trait to actively hurt other members of its species for no good reason, then that species won't last long, especially if the other traits of that orgasm work best in group form. It would select itself out of existence. Humans are group animals and so we have the ethics of a group animal- the desire and ability to form bonds, form hierarchies, work together, the willingness to defend that group, and to try to achieve a good position in that group.

The vast majority of humans don't want to hurt other humans for no good reason. Something needs to provoke them, and then even when provoked, many will try to find a way to avoid violence. Aggressive tendencies generally get channeled through fantasies, sports, fiction, some non-violent or low-violence social displays (like bullying, unfortunately, which is usually minor but a times can be deadly), or socially acceptable (but not necessarily logically ethical) forms of violence like military work or police work, where they end up fighting for resources, or protecting people, depending on the nature of their specific work. They also channel it through some religions, through preaching spiritual harm to outside groups, like death or torture.

Only rarely does random violence occur, and it's usually because someone defined their group as only being their local smaller group, didn't think very long-term, and then harmed someone that they considered an outsider. The result is usually prison.

Wars occur generally for resources, and happen when the group is being defined as the nation.

If we have a natural ratio, I believe it tips toward violence. Arguably when we are in our most primal states we react most naturally, with instincts. The level you are talking about requires cognitive processes and thus is less natural.

But I agree with the sentiment that we do have instinctual drives to connect. Those drives are so necessary and powerful that with cognitive processes we can override violent tendencies to a point where they do not arise, though few ever get there.

The concept of not harming others absolutely derives from these urges to connect. Survival in a system without others is extremely hard. Even the sociopaths that were discussed earlier in this thread still rely on social interconnectedness. Despite lacking empathy, they act like they play by the rules in order to reap these benefits.

Thus, I agree with your earlier point about relative power. Even those who are the most powerful still rely on some group to extract the benefits they need.

I would suggest that our minds are capable of abstracting this connectedness from non human sources. Consequently, hermit can maintain sanity by connecting with nature, but the type of cognitive functioning required for such feats would likely also require a person not to manifest violent urges at every whim.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
We all have the potential to harm others. To abstain from harm is a deliberate choice. It is also the first step towards individual liberation.
 

Amechania

Daimona of the Helpless
Love is strength, hate is weakness. Only an unbalanced, self-destructive person chooses to do deliberate harm.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I'd think the why is obvious. Many biological organisms find physical and emotional pain unpleasant, likely because such stimuli can lead to disability that impairs its chance of survival if not outright death. Additionally, humans have social constructs that have pervasively labeled such things as "bad" or taboo to the point most are blind to its benefits or "good" aspects.

Very good post!
I would like to add that based on those biological reactions society has developed moral ethics and virtues behind such reactions.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
There's nothing to say that it is bad. Although, in my belief, I think harming other people's place in the moral spectrum would depend on why you're doing it.

If you're doing it for fun, I'd probably find that (personally) immoral. If you're doing it in means that you do not get hurt, and especially to prevent any loved ones from getting hurt, then it would (personally) be moral.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Currently the only domain with which the concept of morality seems to be reflected is within that of conscious entities with significantly developed intellectual capabilities; there appears no other medium or phenomenon which reflects a 'moral' dimension; instead it currently appears to be a characteristic wholly encapsulated by the capacity of mental processing.

Generally speaking therefore we can with some degree of reliably assert that some outcome, the (in)action which facilitates it or the heuristic which engenders the (in)action has the potential for moral associations when it effects an entity capable of perceiving its state and finding that state undesirable (even if perhaps they are unaware of the effect itself, but merely of their state), i.e. a subject can potentially be said to be (im)moral when it effects some entity capable of perceiving a state and forming an opinion about the (un)desirability of that state. Of course one could then examine that concept further - the control over which certain actors could have influenced the outcomes, alternative outcomes, the predicatability of outcomes, the immediacy of the effect, the objective degree of impact and so forth - all are valid avenues of analysis. But the more general question raised in the OP, in terms of why the effect is a valid basis of morality in the first place is a little more easily examined.

Given as far as we can determine, the concept of morality is entirely dependant on those minds of the particular individuals invovled (and often argued to include those whom are not involved but choose to involve themselves) and is largely related to the desirability and acceptability of certain phenomenon in terms of experience; it is inescapable that the experience of these minds will form a significant component of the basis for this 'morality' which is a term used to convey some form of evaluation about the perceived desirability, acceptability or validity of the experience of minds according to a number of heuristics, which include virtue based systems, pre/proscription rule based systems etc. There are a huge number of ways one might evaluate said experience, but given morality seems inextricably based on experience, I do not understand what it would mean for a moral system to not be based on the experience of minds (even of entities that are not known to exist, but rather simply beleived to exist).

I do not believe any satisfactory definition of morality could be formed without some reference to the experience of minds, given that suffering is a negative experience of a conscious entity, I do not believe moral frameworks could avoid addressing this issue simply by definition.


edit:
As to the discussion of when might it be acceptable to allow/inflict suffering: Well this will largely be based on he perception of the entities involved, whether you think they will experience suffering (such as whether you think that suffering 'counts'), the net outcomes of the (in)action (such as the 'greater good' arguments), the distribution of outcomes and a great deal more. There are innumerable context dependent factors that might be weighed into your evaluation of the (un)acceptability of courses of actions that will result in suffering, due to the limits of the human intellect, we usually incorporate a largely intuitive decision making heuristic in such cases - a gut feeling - which streamlines our information processing in exchange for limiting the effect of certain explicit rational processing such as certain filters that might have otherwise vetted our intuitions.

The best we can probably come to acting in such a way as to effectively manage our largely intuitive evaluations of such situations is to become aware of the factors which are effecting our subconscious processing in the efforts to preemptively adjust our mindset which will effect those resulting intuitive heuristics.
 
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Knight of Albion

Well-Known Member
From the practical perspective, as all are subject to the Law of Cause and Effect, not hurting others and thereby incurring negative karma ('suffering can only be requited by suffering'), is a very pragmatic and sensible moral guideline.

From the spiritual perspective, ('God is love and love is of God') Love is the fulfilling of the Law, so by practicing love, as best one can, in one's daily life, one is indeed 'living spiritually' and furthering one's soul - which ultimately is the goal of evolution.

In time, one comes to learn of the unity of all life and that other sentient beings are not only ensouled but on their own evolutionary path. And then one, facing the truth, recognises the need to extend the boundaries of their compassion.

"Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace" - Albert Schweitzer
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
But what if I hate cancer?

IMHO, it depends on what you do with your passion. Both hate and love are strong, passionate emotions. Whether or not they are a "strength" or "weakness" depends entirely on how you use them, how other beings and the environment respond to it, and what sorts of value judgements you're projecting onto reality in general.

I'd say if you hate cancer and don't actually do anything with that passionate energy, it's probably a weakness because you're draining yourself by getting all worked up and accomplishing nothing.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
IMHO, it depends on what you do with your passion. Both hate and love are strong, passionate emotions. Whether or not they are a "strength" or "weakness" depends entirely on how you use them, how other beings and the environment respond to it, and what sorts of value judgements you're projecting onto reality in general.

I'd say if you hate cancer and don't actually do anything with that passionate energy, it's probably a weakness because you're draining yourself by getting all worked up and accomplishing nothing.

Interesting....
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
The corner stone of much of our ethics is that it's wrong, bad, incorrect, unacceptable or evil to hurt other people.

Why?

If it's a mutually agreed thing, what if you are powerful and don't fear being hurt or want to be hurt? Should the person then still have a reason beyond empathy or social contracts to not hurt other people, and why?

For purely selfish reasons: people who hurt other people just because they can are cowards, and you can only hide that from yourself for so long.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
For purely selfish reasons: people who hurt other people just because they can are cowards, and you can only hide that from yourself for so long.

I would say they are sociopaths if it didn't even bother them at all. That's different than selfishness.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Because humans evolved as social animals, and therefore survive best (and usually only) in groups. A successful social group will not work if the members are psychopaths- empathy and understanding and sharing is in the rational self interest of the members because it strengthens the group and their place in the group.

This. One current understanding of morality is that it is adaptive- that morality evolved as mutually-beneficial cooperative strategies; you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, is basically what it boils down to. Our ancestors survived and reproduced, in part, because they adopted such strategies as working together, outing cheaters and liars, and so on- doing so increased their reproductive success. And part of this involves not harming others; I don't harm you, you don't harm me- and it should pretty obvious why a mutual agreement to not harm one another furthers one's reproductive success.
 

Yadon

Active Member
Love is strength, hate is weakness. Only an unbalanced, self-destructive person chooses to do deliberate harm.

How and why is it weakness? Is this a blanket statement or for a specific set of goals in mind? Is it okay to hate thing that hurt us, or that are bad for our survival? Particularly if it might grant some benefit to our species?

For purely selfish reasons: people who hurt other people just because they can are cowards, and you can only hide that from yourself for so long.

At the very least it seems a waste of resources and counter-productive to the species for others to harm others for no reason. Though the social Darwinians might argue it would "weed out" the weak. A view I don't really agree with.

But specifically how does that make them a coward? What if they did it boldly without sneaking or anything like that? Got in a lot of fights and just brawled it over small things? Surely that would make them unintelligent most likely but I don't know if coward is the word.
 
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