Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

[JayJayDee]

Then how do you account for the diversity of life? Things don't just "poof" appear and here they are.

I believe that creation took place over a very long period of time. I do not subscribe to the literal 7/ 24 hour hour day creation story. The earth itself is very old. No disputing that.

Living things appear in the order in which Genesis records them. The diversity of life is the product of a power that is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals to understand or to duplicate his methods.

Everything in our own experience that exhibits design has a designer....tell me when that is not true. All the tools and equipment that have specific purposes relevant to an industry in which they are used are designed by someone with an intimate knowledge of the work it is required to carry out. Adaptation is like a heightened design that allows the equipment to work in all areas without extreme modification. The basic design stays the same but the improvements make it more efficient.

This is how I see things. I don't believe it is an unreasonable position.

 

[JayJayDee]

I understand your perspective, what I am asking is what would it mean for you and your beliefs if evolution was true.

Evolution is true up to a point. The rest is pie in the sky, so it is not even a reasonable question.
I have a personal relationship with my Creator that unbelievers could never comprehend, so it isn't even in the realms of possibility that there is no Creator for me. Just as the evolutionist cannot comprehend that blind undirected chance is not responsible for all life on this planet.

We each have a position that we believe cannot be wrong......impasse. We will all know sooner or later...won't we?

 

[Desert Snake]

I believe that creation took place over a very long period of time. I do not subscribe to the literal 7/ 24 hour hour day creation story. The earth itself is very old. No disputing that.

Oh, there is disputing that. The Bible states a quick creation time, relatively, and you are stating that creation took place over a long period of time; who is correct? You, or the Bible? I'm going with the Bible.

Living things appear in the order in which Genesis records them. The diversity of life is the product of a power that is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals to understand or to duplicate his methods.

Everything in our own experience that exhibits design has a designer....tell me when that is not true. All the tools and equipment that have specific purposes relevant to an industry in which they are used are designed by someone with an intimate knowledge of the work it is required to carry out. Adaptation is like a heightened design that allows the equipment to work in all areas without extreme modification. The basic design stays the same but the improvements make it more efficient.

This is how I see things. I don't believe it is an unreasonable position.

 

[Curious George]

Evolution is true up to a point. The rest is pie in the sky, so it is not even a reasonable question.
I have a personal relationship with my Creator that unbelievers could never comprehend, so it isn't even in the realms of possibility that there is no Creator for me. Just as the evolutionist cannot comprehend that blind undirected chance is not responsible for all life on this planet.

We each have a position that we believe cannot be wrong......impasse. We will all know sooner or later...won't we?

Hmm, what I am asking is what in your worldview would be affected if macroevolution was proven to your satisfaction.

 

[JayJayDee]

Human's and dinosaurs did not co-exist, by a long shot. There is also overwhelming, without any shadow of a doubt, empirical evidence they did did not.

First humans hadn't evolved yet for a fact.

I don't recall saying that they did.

Why is that even in the conversation? Many species of ancient life became extinct before man arrived. Just as well too!
Imagine trying to dodge a T-Rex whilst out for your morning walk.

The asteroid was the size of MT Everest and material even landed on the moon. The entire planet was effected. The KTT Boundary is a fact. Dinosaur fossils and then no dinosaur fossils. The only thing to make that mass extinction event were the relatives of dinosaurs, birds. Very small ancestoral mammals and some reptiles, basically some life that lived in burrows and was underground.

LOL......or that is what scientist "think" happened. Was someone there to record the event in detail? Got footage? No? Then fill in the blanks with imagination? OK...that might work for you, but not for me.

The kinetic energy of 100 billion atomic bombs the size of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki going off at once. It devastated the planet, shock blast, molten material came down all over the planet, tidal waves, sulfuric acid rain, fires, a deep freeze and an earthquake so powerful it would have instantly broken your legs and jammed them into your body. It changed the surface of the entire Earth.

Is there a point to this? It is pure speculation about what "might have" happened. How does one calculate the timing of such a catastrophic event when the supposed damage was that immense? Must have messed up the strata big time eh?

Sorry, your video didn't work on my iPad.

Why would we be concerned about what was around long before humankind walked the earth? What does their extinction have to do with is?

Life evolved back from this extinction event. In fact mammals and us eventually evolved from what we remained after the impact.

Or so science speculates. In their opinion, that is how it played out. You take a lot on face value.....but then you would accuse me of the same thing.

Mammals and us were the last to be created......so what am I to make of this line of reasoning?

 

[JayJayDee]

Hmm, what I am asking is what in your worldview would be affected if macroevolution was proven to your satisfaction.

It hasn't been proven to my satisfaction for more years than I can count...have you some startling new evidence to offer that will rescue me from my delusion?

Conditions apply: No computer aided imagery. No illustrations.
No speculation or guesswork offered as proof.
Actual evidence that shows conclusively that one species can evolve into a completely different "kind" of animal or fish or bird.

Thank you.

 

[JayJayDee]

Oh, there is disputing that. The Bible states a quick creation time, relatively, and you are stating that creation took place over a long period of time; who is correct? You, or the Bible? I'm going with the Bible.

Let's see your evidence disciple. Where is the relatively "quick creation time" stipulated in the Bible?

 

[Desert Snake]

Let's see your evidence disciple. Where is the relatively "quick creation time" stipulated in the Bible?

As opposed to your 'evidence' for a long creation time? Am I really having this argument? And, ''evidence'' doesn't mean what someone wrote in a cool book somewhere, it means evidence that disproves the clear Biblical narrative of a quick creation.

 

[Desert Snake]

Let's see your evidence disciple. Where is the relatively "quick creation time" stipulated in the Bible?

Why would there be a ''long creation time'', anyways? lol

 

[shawn001]

I don't recall saying that they did.

Why is that even in the conversation? Many species of ancient life became extinct before man arrived. Just as well too!
Imagine trying to dodge a T-Rex whilst out for your morning walk.



LOL......or that is what scientist "think" happened. Was someone there to record the event in detail? Got footage? No? Then fill in the blanks with imagination? OK...that might work for you, but not for me.



Is there a point to this? It is pure speculation about what "might have" happened. How does on calculate the timing of such a catastrophic event when the supposed damage was that immense? Must have messed up the strata big time eh?

Sorry, your video didn't work on my iPad.

Why would we be concerned about what was around long before humankind walked the earth? What does their extinction have to do with is?



Or so science speculates. In their opinion, that is how it played out. You take a lot on face value.....but then you would accuse me of the same thing.

Mammals and us were the last to be created......so what am I to make of this line of reasoning?

If you watched that video and the evidence then you would see how macro evolution happened and learn something about evolution, its a shame you couldn't watch it..

JayJayDee, seriously micro and macro evolution has happened and is happening and it makes no difference to it what so ever of anyone convincing you personally about all the science that back it and the millions of great minds that have contributed to it, that understand science again the billions of facts that support it, everything in life supports it and the entire universes evolving. Some of your opinons break fundamental laws of nature even.


"Why would we be concerned about what was around long before humankind walked the earth? What does their extinction have to do with is?"

LOL Sorry if you only knew the irony in that statement.

 

[Curious George]

It hasn't been proven to my satisfaction for more years than I can count...have you some startling new evidence to offer that will rescue me from my delusion?

Conditions apply: No computer aided imagery. No illustrations.
No speculation or guesswork offered as proof.
Actual evidence that shows conclusively that one species can evolve into a completely different "kind" of animal or fish or bird.

Thank you.

Somehow I am feeling like you are avoiding my question. I am not saying evolution is true. I am simply asking a hypothetical question.

 

[shawn001]

It hasn't been proven to my satisfaction for more years than I can count...have you some startling new evidence to offer that will rescue me from my delusion?

Conditions apply: No computer aided imagery. No illustrations.
No speculation or guesswork offered as proof.
Actual evidence that shows conclusively that one species can evolve into a completely different "kind" of animal or fish or bird.

Thank you.

Again LOL, its an education of the bigger picture in all the sciences of the universe, solar system, earth, planets and the history of life on the planet.

 

[JayJayDee]

As opposed to your 'evidence' for a long creation time? Am I really having this argument? And, ''evidence'' doesn't mean what someone wrote in a cool book somewhere, it means evidence that disproves the clear Biblical narrative of a quick creation.

So you shot that statement about the quick creation just off the top of your head then?

Why would there be a ''long creation time'', anyways? lol

Unlike a lot of others who support creation, I have to align align my beliefs with what can actually be proven by science.

The age of the earth is not contested in the scriptures. The Genesis account simply states that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"....when was the "beginning"? It doesn't say.
And there is no timeframe stated between verse 1 and 2. So one is a statement of God's creation and two is the beginning of the modifications of earth's atmosphere and environment to a eventually accommodate living creatures.

Each creative period is called a "day". But the word "day" doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hour period.
In Gen 2:4 the whole of God's creative activity is said to have taken place in a "day".

God is a timeless being. His counting of time is vastly different to ours. Peter even said that "a thousand years" to us is like "one day" to God. (2 Pet 3:8) He is not bound by the earth's rotation which is how we count time.

The Bible allows for the long creative epochs, not necessarily 24 hour days.

 

[JayJayDee]

Somehow I am feeling like you are avoiding my question. I am not saying evolution is true. I am simply asking a hypothetical question.

In my mind it doesn't even have a hypothetical answer. I am not avoiding your question...it simply isn't in my vocabulary.

No one has come up with the goods to convince me otherwise. So why would I even consider it?
What do you want me to say? That my faith would be shattered? Not a chance.

 

[Curious George]

In my mind it doesn't even have a hypothetical answer. I am not avoiding your question...it simply isn't in my vocabulary.

No one has come up with the goods to convince me otherwise. So why would I even consider it?
What do you want me to say? That my faith would be shattered? Not a chance.

No, I am asking how your faith would be restructured. What implications would it hold for you.

It is not in the realm of possibility for leprechauns to exist imho, but if you were to ask me how my beliefs would change if leprechauns did exist, I could answer.

 

[JayJayDee]

Again LOL, its an education of the bigger picture in all the sciences of the universe, solar system, earth, planets and the history of life on the planet.

Whose education? Has Science become a substitute religion for some?....and just because someone with an education speculates after finding a tooth, a bone fragment or a fossil, everyone else jumps on their bandwagon and claims that it must be true? Why? You all seem as desperate for there NOT to be a Creator as we are for the existence of an intelligent designer.

Don't you find that odd? Why should it matter? If there is no Creator, then nothing will change...just more of the same rot that exists at present. Man's inhumanity to man will end up wiping us out of existence...and what's to bet that the misuse of science will accomplish it? Something for y'all to look forward to.

On the other hand, if there is a Creator, and he has provided a Guidebook which records his wisdom, his purpose and his achievements, then he should be able to tell us how it all ends up. And what do you know! He does! And it sounds pretty good to me. In fact, it resonates with everything that is in me.
It gives me hope beyond the stupidity of humans who believe that they are much smarter than they really are.

 

[Desert Snake]

So you shot that statement about the quick creation just off the top of your head then?

No. The Bible, by using the word ''day'', is indicating a quick creation period. If it was a lengthy creation period, the wording would have been different. You have quite an ''interpretation'' here, but I'm not in agreement.

Unlike a lot of others who support creation, I have to align align my beliefs with what can actually be proven by science.

The age of the earth is not contested in the scriptures. The Genesis account simply states that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"....when was the "beginning"? It doesn't say.
And there is no timeframe stated between verse 1 and 2. So one is a statement of God's creation and two is the beginning of the modifications of earth's atmosphere and environment to a eventually accommodate living creatures.

Each creative period is called a "day". But the word "day" doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hour period.
In Gen 2:4 the whole of God's creative activity is said to have taken place in a "day".

God is a timeless being. His counting of time is vastly different to ours. Peter even said that "a thousand years" to us is like "one day" to God. (2 Pet 3:8) He is not bound by the earth's rotation which is how we count time.

The Bible allows for the long creative epochs, not necessarily 24 hour days.

'Proven by science'? Science can't disprove things like the creation of the earth.

 

[JayJayDee]

No, I am asking how your faith would be restructured. What implications would it hold for you.

It is not in the realm of possibility for leprechauns to exist imho, but if you were to ask me how my beliefs would change if leprechauns did exist, I could answer.

My faith is a construction that took many years to build. I am not convinced easily. I require proof.

I have no idea how to answer a question that would never be entertained in my mind. I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they like...but no one will convince me that an intelligent designer of all life does not exist. I see intelligence designed into nature that is not explainable except by the existence of a purposeful designer....random chance as an explanation, is an impossibility of the highest order. Just too ridiculous.
That to me is like saying someone left a brick on a vacant block of land and when they went back in a few million years, there was a skyscraper!

 

[JayJayDee]

No. The Bible, by using the word ''day'', is indicating a quick creation period. If it was a lengthy creation period, the wording would have been different. You have quite an ''interpretation'' here, but I'm not in agreement.

Just showing you that a "day" isn't necessarily a 24 hour period.

'Proven by science'? Science can't disprove things like the creation of the earth.

Science can prove that the earth isn't 6,000 years old. The Bible doesn't argue with them on this one.

 

[shawn001]

Whose education? Has Science become a substitute religion for some?....and just because someone with an education speculates after finding a tooth, a bone fragment or a fossil, everyone else jumps on their bandwagon and claims that it must be true? Why? You all seem as desperate for there NOT to be a Creator as we are for the existence of an intelligent designer.

Don't you find that odd? Why should it matter? If there is no Creator, then nothing will change...just more of the same rot that exists at present. Man's inhumanity to man will end up wiping us out of existence...and what's to bet that the misuse of science will accomplish it? Something for y'all to look forward to.

On the other hand, if there is a Creator, and he has provided a Guidebook which records of his wisdom, his purpose and his achievements, then he should be able to tell us how it all ends up. And what do you know! He does! And it sounds pretty good to me. In fact, it resonates with everything that is in me.
It gives me hope beyond the stupidity of humans who believe that they are much smarter than they really are.

You don't even have the right framework for the debate, science is not about God.

Was Einstein stupid?

The Big Bang so hot, that all the matter would have been in the form of particles, called protons and neutrons.

Take it from there and explain the evolution of the universe and formation of the sun and the planets to today. Lets here your explanation, without using your bible.