Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

[JM2C]

For example, the gospels of both Matthew and Luke state that Mary was pregnant and Jesus was born in the time of Herod the Great, but Luke also state during these event with Mary and Jesus taking place, was the census of Quirinius.

The problem is that Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was never governor of Syria while Herod was still alive; he didn't become legate of Syria until 6 CE, 10 years after Herod's death.

6 CE was the time that Augustus had Archelaus exiled from Judaea, and Judaea became a new province. The census took place in 6 CE, not before Herod's death. And 2nd, Luke indicated that the census in "all the world". Now I believing what Luke meant that all the people of the provinces should registered, meaning just the Roman empire.

AC 5:37 “After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.

According to Josephus, the Jewish historian of the first century, Judas's rebellion occurred about A.D. 6.

“In the days of the census –Acts 5:37” as the 2nd census in 6 AD, i.e., after 14 years from the first census in 8 B.C.

Some ancient records found in Egypt mention a worldwide census ordered in 8 B.C. by Caesar Augustus.

2 years after Caesar Augustus ordered the first census in 8 B.C. the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, i.e., 6 B.C.

Quirinius served as Governor of Syria twice or two terms, and in both terms, two census were ordered, one is in 8 B.C. “This was the first/PROTOS census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. –Luke 2:2”. Why did Luke say “protos/first” census? Because there was a 2nd census in 6 A.D. “In the days of the census- Acts 5:37”

How do we know that Quirinius served twice as governor of Syria?

“A fragment of stone discovered at Tivoli [near Rome] in A.D.1764 contains an inscription in honor of a Roman official who, it states, was twice governor of Syria and Phoenecia during the reign of Augustus.”

Now, the question is, if Caesar Augustus ordered the first census in 8 B.C. and the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ is 6 B.C., then why it took them 2 years to register for the census? Information back then does not travel very fast like we have today so by the time they get those info and the traveling time to get from where they were, it does really takes a lot of time.

 

[JM2C]

This is highly unlikely to have taken place. The reason for registration for census taking place, is for new province. Judaea being actually small and unimportant province would only require those living in Judaea to register. It would be highly unlikely Augustus would order census for all provinces.

The reason is for taxing and that was the reason why there was a rebellion in the 2nd census by Judas in Acts 5:37. The Jews were paying tithes already, i.e., according to the Law of Moses, and they don’t want to pay the Romans at the same time.

Lk 2:2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
Lk 2:3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

 

[JM2C]

Hebrew word behe.mah' is understood to denote a great beast or huge beast.

In the Greek Septuagint the word ' the.ri'a ' is used for wild beast and generally considered or translated as: hippopotamus.

Job 40:15 hineh-na' behemot 'asher-`asiyti `imake chatsiyr kabaqar yo'kel. Behemoth: meaning the beast par excellence.

Did you see the tail of a hippo? Was it really like a cedar tree? Can’t hardly see the tail of a hippo compare to the size of the body, but in Job 40:17, the tail is eye-catching, as in, you can’t miss it from any angle and that’s how God describe this dinosaur [modern name for BEHEMOTH of course]. Just imagine the size of the body of this BEHEMOTH compare to the tail.

 

[metis]

If one talks to a historian who's expertise is on early Roman history, they scoff at the supposed census that supposedly necessitated Joseph and Mary having to go to Bethlehem. First of all, there's no emphasis of a census being taken at that time even though there are records of other census before and after that time period, plus people did not have to travel to where they were born in order to register. It would be illogical for so many in that region to have to travel sometimes great distances to do just register as it would be highly disruptive and economically foolish.

Instead, many Christian theologians tend to take that narrative as being a subjective approach to draw a parallel between David and Jesus.

 

[JM2C]

Thank you for sharing this video. It was hilarious. The guy asking him to do the test just doesn't get that you can't do the test on something like this. And if you did you would get all kinds of random answers. I think he was pretty smart to deny the test. The amount of money that it would get would simply not be worth it for some creationist group to try and use whatever numbers come up, even if they are obviously wrong, as some kind of argument against evolution. That damage to the education of Americans and the rest of the world couldn't simply be counterbalanced by 10k to a single museum.

Its like refusing to negotiate with terrorists.

He knew that it’s dateable and that was the only reason why he refused to carbon14 date it.

“Your group is obviously a group of creationists and the spin they can get off of it is not gonna help US.” –Dr. Horner

That would be the END of the millions and billions of years of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory is finito kaput.

 

[JM2C]

Congradulations you can quote a wiki.

We can all learn from ignorance. I think the word you’re looking for is congratulations or congrats and not congradulations. I could understand if you mistakenly hit the R or the Y in your keyboard but the D under the E, there is no excuse for that but ignorance.

Too bad most animals with legs have sinews. Sinew was uses much like elastic bands, these could hold tension then be released as a force. Sinew was used for many weapons from bows to ballista. Your verse just describe somethings very common and easy to observe... Again due to your ignorance you assume sinew is only about dinosaurs. We all have sinew, you, I and every other member of RF, its called tendons....

Did I assume sinew is only about dinosaurs?

All tetrapods have sinew, not just dinosaurs...

Did you know that the word "Behemoth" is plural? We all have collagen. Gravity pulls us down really quick if don’t have enough collagen.

A tendon (or sinew) is a tough band of fibrous connective tissue that usually connects muscle to bone[1] and is capable of withstanding tension. Tendons are similar to ligaments and fasciae; all three are made of collagen. -Wiki

 

[JM2C]

This does not mean the tail is that length. A cedar can be anywhere from a seedling, sapling to an length to a maximum. You only picked 130 as it matches dinosaurs rather than going by what the verse says. The same applies to a "tree". Also notice how you provide the parameter of height while the verse does not.

God did not plant any seedlings of anything, He brought out the trees with “fruit yielding seed” already. So, now you know that chicken came first before the egg just like the trees with fruit in it already.

GE 1:29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
GE 1:30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.

You may have to Congradulate [pardon my ignorance] me here again because I got this from wiki.

Cedrus libani is an evergreen coniferous tree growing up to 40 m (130 ft) tall, with a trunk up to 2.5 m (8 ft 2 in) in diameter. The crown is conic when young, becoming broadly tabular with age with fairly level branches.

The shoots are dimorphic, with long shoots and short shoots. The leaves are needle-like, spaced out on the long shoots, and in clusters of 15-45 on the short shoots; they are 5–30 mm (1⁄4–1 3⁄16 in) in length, quadrangular in cross-section, and vary from green to glaucous blue-green with stomatal bands on all four sides. The seed cones are produced often every second year, and mature in 12 months from pollination; mature cones in late autumn are 8–12 cm (3–4 3⁄4 in) long and 4–6 cm (1 1⁄2–2 3⁄8 in) wide. -wiki

And if you read the sentence again “I did not say 130 feet but it can grow up to 130 feet” and I think God was not talking about “SEEDLINGS” in Job 40:17.

 

[JM2C]

You've been shown empirical evidence of the fossil record.

You mean Lucy to the Nebraska Man? I thought they were frauds.

How about answering my question.

Huh?

 

[outhouse]

I thought they were frauds.

PROVIDE CREDIBLE SOURCES.

Because all credible sources say evolution is fact.


We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

1. In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
2. Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
3. Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

 

[JM2C]

Did you read the article? They performed an experiment that demonstrated that iron can act as a preservative. Iron was also found in the fossil. It's not an excuse, it's been tested.

How long is the experiment now? Only two years but we are talking about 68 million years. Formaldehyde is not design to prevent from decomposition but to slow it down. When you have a good grip on this long-age paradigm and even if the evidence that is contradicting this belief is right in front of eyes you will find a way to deny it.

“The bones are, after all, 65 million years old. How could blood cells survive that long?”-Mary Schweitzer

It’s like science is telling her that there is no way it can survive for 65 million years and it’s time to abandon this millions and billions of evolutionary theory.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

He knew that it’s dateable and that was the only reason why he refused to carbon14 date it.

“Your group is obviously a group of creationists and the spin they can get off of it is not gonna help US.” –Dr. Horner

That would be the END of the millions and billions of years of evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory is finito kaput.

If he knew that it was dateable then he would have dated it and got the noble prize. But it wasn't and isn't.

 

[JM2C]

Theories have evidence is support and have not be falsified. If you are going to use the word at least know what it means in context. Due to your own ignorance you just said my view has evidence while yours does not.

Empirical evidence you mean? Where? Evidence of nothing produced nothing.

That’s why you guys are still in the theory business because nothing has been proven yet as evidence from your theories. You think frauds are evidence of theory? Molecules-to-Man. Really?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Empirical evidence you mean? Where? Evidence of nothing produced nothing.

That’s why you guys are still in the theory business because nothing has been proven yet as evidence from your theories. You think frauds are evidence of theory? Molecules-to-Man. Really?

What do you have to say about ERVs and the fossil record, then?

 

[JM2C]

If he knew that it was dateable then he would have dated it and got the noble prize. But it wasn't and isn't.

Nobel prize for just carbon dating? How about doing what is right and forget about the Nobel prize? It is absolutely dateable with 14C, and if you think about it, is there anything he would lose if he agrees on doing it? You know what I think, he probably did it already, and found out it was not really a 65 million years old dinosaur, but just over 4,500 years old.

 

[dust1n]

"we have no direct evidence of smooth transitions" Gould

"It's as if they [fossils] were planted there with no evolutionary history" Dawkins

Wow, didn't you just do this same quote mining like a couple weeks ago? Rare to see someone to do something they have already been called out for.

 

[dust1n]

Reading some responses in this thread reminded me of a pertinent quote, also from Richard Dawkins:

Don't forget this one "It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history"

Quote-mining is a dishonest tactic:

The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution - Richard Dawkins - Google Books

There it is.

 

[outhouse]

? You know what I think, he probably did it already, and found out it was not really a 65 million years old dinosaur, but just over 4,500 years old.

LOL

Provide sources.

 

[outhouse]

Empirical evidence you mean?

Where is yours????????


You can only attack the status quo.

Your other issue is you have no replacement hypothesis for evolution. Nothing at all. Maybe pseudo science and mythology at best, see if that ever makes academia.

 

[outhouse]

You mean Lucy to the Nebraska Man? I thought they were frauds.

No surprise.

You think a lot outside education and academia.

PROVIDE SOURCES You make to many pseudo scientific claims

 

[Parsimony]

How long is the experiment now? Only two years but we are talking about 68 million years. Formaldehyde is not design to prevent from decomposition but to slow it down. When you have a good grip on this long-age paradigm and even if the evidence that is contradicting this belief is right in front of eyes you will find a way to deny it.

“The bones are, after all, 65 million years old. How could blood cells survive that long?”-Mary Schweitzer

It’s like science is telling her that there is no way it can survive for 65 million years and it’s time to abandon this millions and billions of evolutionary theory.

"We don't know how collagen can survive that long, therefore it can't" is an example of the argument from ignorance. There is already massive evidence that the Earth and life on it are very old. Different radiometric dating techniques corraborate each other, as well as non-radiometric techniques like varves, ice cores and genetic clocks. It is therefore exceedingly more likely that the collagen is very old than all of these dating techniques being wrong.

If it had been tested (preferably by multiple labs), was found to be only a few thousand years old, didn't conflict with other dating methods used on the fossil, and various sources of error had been ruled out, then I would accept that it was a few thousand years old. So how about you? If it was tested and found to be too old to date with C-14, would you have accepted those results?

Did you know that the word "Behemoth" is plural? We all have collagen. Gravity pulls us down really quick if don’t have enough collagen.

You said that already but have not explained the relevance.

A tendon (or sinew) is a tough band of fibrous connective tissue that usually connects muscle to bone[1] and is capable of withstanding tension. Tendons are similar to ligaments and fasciae; all three are made of collagen. -Wiki

Tendons are outside of the bone. The collagen was found inside the bone. What's the relevance and what does it have to do with proving that the behemoth was a dinosaur? As I said before, even if it was a dinosaur that would not disprove evolution any more than the discovery of a living coelacanth disproved it. All that would prove is that at least some non-avian dinosaurs survived into the human era. Evolution does not say that such a thing cannot happen.