Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

[gnostic]

In the 3rd century, Origen is quoted by Eusebius as saying the first was written according to Matthew who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew Language. - The Ecclesiastical History - VI,xxx,3-6

That's better. Thank you, URAVIP2ME.

Truthfully, I have not read works either authors, but you originally wrote:

Origen quoted Eusebius saying Matthew at first was written for those from Judaism

There lie my confusion.

 

[Bunyip]

That you have a belief...just like I do.....a belief that you cannot prove conclusively.
200 years of men trying to understand creation can be called science, but they have never disproved the existence of a Creator.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with evolution or atheism.

He is the inventor of all science. Men have only begun to scratch the surface of scientific knowledge, yet the first thing they do is try to eliminate belief in the one who made them. Biting the hand that feeds you is not a smart move even by an animal.


Proselytizing who? I was addressing you. Are you thinking of becoming a JW?

Hell no, you have reduced them to gibbering morons by association. If other JW's are like you I hope never to meet any.

 

[Bunyip]

You’re just implying that there was an “issue that it is unrealistic to have people travel to their places of birth for a census” which really contradicts from this

”Roman census were done based on where one lived” or “There is also the issue that it is unrealistic to have people travel to their places of birth for a census.” Which ONE it is?

It’s either traveling became the unfounded “issue” based on your unrealistic understanding of that era because of the means of transportation we have today compared to the era, or was it really “the officials of the state that traveled”? You can’t tell the difference, can you? You know why? Because you don’t know!

The issue is that a census records where people live and work - where they were born is not significant. Any census would seek to identify local businesses, traders, landholders etc in situ - a general demand that people return to their places of birth for a census would be absolutely unthinkable. It would also be incredibly stupid and counter productive.
Not to mention that Herod was actually dead at the time he is supposed to have made this absurd demand.
Think about it - imagine the economic turmoil, the utter catastrophy of an entire population seeking to return to their places of birth for a census. It is an utterly implausible fantasy.
Businesses, properties and farms would be abandoned - the economy would grind to a halt.

 

[Shad]

You must have realised how badly you messed up on this, the meltdown is impressive.

It is his cover for his incompetence since he is unable to keep track of a conversation passed a few minutes. Hell I do not know how he even managed to insert the diaspora into my argument since it was completely separate and brought up only once. the use of paragraphs must be confusing.

 

[Shad]

The issue is that a census records where people live and work - where they were born is not significant. Any census would seek to identify local businesses, traders, landholders etc in situ - a general demand that people return to their places of birth for a census would be absolutely unthinkable. It would also be incredibly stupid and counter productive.
Not to mention that Herod was actually dead at the time he is supposed to have made this absurd demand.

I linked two sources about Roman taxation policy which include the census, none of which required anyone leaving their area of residence for their place of birth. It a theological narrative to cover Misch, nothing more. Josphus wrote about the census after the area become a province but never mentioned a migration for registration. It is more likely Luke used this as a basis in order to construct the narrative to cover up the prophecies Jesus failed to met

 

[Bunyip]

I linked two sources about Roman taxation policy which include the census, none of which required anyone leaving their area of residence for their place of birth. It a theological narrative to cover Misch, nothing more. Josphus wrote about the census after the area become a province but never mentioned a migration for registration. It is more likely Luke used this as a basis in order to construct the narrative to cover up the prophecies Jesus failed to met

Thanks, they were very interesting. And yes, no ruler would make such an absurd demand.

 

[Shad]

Thanks, they were very interesting. And yes, no ruler would make such an absurd demand.

It is nonsensical to be blunt.

 

[JM2C]

So you projected what my actions should be while failing to provide parameters in your own comment which would direct me to do so. You only mentioned the translation of Immanual but said nothing about virgin as the focus. I put your quote in bold so you can learn how to form a proper sentence with parameters. Follow the bold to learn how to focus a sentence's point by emphasizing a point of a sentence.


See, son, if you want to talk about about virgin then you should provide a sentence or parameter so one can clearly see you are talking about it.


Instead you provided parameters about Immanuel then reinforced this by the parameter of "which translated means" which direct the focus to Immanuel rather than virgin. So congratulations for fail to construct a properly structured sentence then calling foul when it was your own mistake.

Maybe you don’t know, [how can that be possible for a GENIUS LIKE YOU], but when you discuss these specific verses the word “virgin” is the main point of the argument.

I merely stated my view on Immanuel since this was the focus of the sentence nothing more. Especially since Isiah predated Mathew this would have been known by most Jews since the Torah was part of their education and religious systems. It is no more impressive than taking a story of King Arthur returning and calling yourself Arthur while having another name all as post hoc rationalization.

You could say, I don’t know, but since you are a GENIUS your pride prevents you from doing it. I can’t blame you GENIUS.

 

[JM2C]

Hey "genius" I never said it was the whole Roman population. We are talking about a census of a province thus the context of population is with the context of the province.

So why people from Galilee traveled to Judah to register, even though they were born and raised in Galilee? “People do not travel to their places of birth for a census” but to the place of their tribal origin based on the context LK 2:3 And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city.

So, the “issue that it is unrealistic to have people travel to their places of birth for a census” is a non-sequitur based on the context LK 2:3 And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city.

MEANING TO THEIR OWN TRIBAL ORIGIN.

 

[JM2C]

Thanks for pointing out you have reading comprehension issues and are incompetent.

Also it was never for a single tribe as governors do not conduct a census on a single tribe but of a whole population of a province...

You do know what context means right?

You do understand the context of the Biblical verse we are discussing right?

Here is the context of what we are discussing, GENIUS.

LK 2:2 This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria.
LK 2:3 And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city.
LK 2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,
LK 2:5 in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child.

IF John BELONGS TO THE TRIBE OF JUDAH, BUT WAS BORN AND RAISE IN GALILEE, HE WOULD HAVE TO REGISTER IN JUDAH, AND NOT THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF GALILEE, FOR SIMPLE REASON THAT NOT ALL THEM BELONGS TO THE TRIBE OF JUDAH EVEN IF SOME OF THEM WERE BORN IN JUDAH BUT DO NOT BELONG TO THE TRIBE OF JUDAH, THEY HAVE TO STAY OR GO TO THEIR OWN CITY.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE GENIUS: SUPPOSED THERE WERE 100 FAMILIES LIVING IN THE CITY OF NAZARETH, BORN AND RAISE THERE, OUT OF 100 FAMILIES ONLY 2 OF THEM BELONGS TO THE TRIBE JUDAH. NOW, HOW MANY SHOULD GO TO JUDAH TO REGISTER? ONLY 2 GENIUS AND REST IF THEY BELONG TO THAT DISTRICT STAYS OR THEY AIN’T GOIN NOWHERE.

YOU DON’T NEED TO HAVE AN IQ OF 140 TO UNDERSTAND THIS.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW GENIUS?

 

[JM2C]

The issue is that a census records where people live and work - where they were born is not significant. Any census would seek to identify local businesses, traders, landholders etc in situ - a general demand that people return to their places of birth for a census would be absolutely unthinkable. It would also be incredibly stupid and counter productive.

Not to mention that Herod was actually dead at the time he is supposed to have made this absurd demand.

Think about it - imagine the economic turmoil, the utter catastrophy of an entire population seeking to return to their places of birth for a census. It is an utterly implausible fantasy.

Businesses, properties and farms would be abandoned - the economy would grind to a halt.

Is that your opinion or are you basing this argument from facts? They are not returning “to their places of birth for census”. Most Judeans were from the tribe of Judah. IOW, they don’t have to leave Judea if they belong to the tribe of Judah, right?


Only those who live in another city or were born and raised in another city that belongs to the tribe of Judah were the one traveling to register to their own city.


LK 2:3 And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city.

LK 2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,

 

[JM2C]

...and isn't it interesting that the sun's heat does not get to the point of too much heat for earth or not enough heat for earth ?
And comforting the point that God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth - Revelation 11:18 B.

Very true and if they could only understand this verses
REV 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
REV 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband
REV 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
REV 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

 

[JM2C]

You must have realised how badly you messed up on this, the meltdown is impressive.

Not as bad as you messed up your genealogy, I guess. Pretending you belong to a royal blood, [master race], when you are just like the others celebrating ignorance.

 

[gnostic]

Why would the Romans want people to enrol for the census, by tribal origin?

It doesn't make sense, because the Romans wouldn't know which people belonged to which tribe.

That's not the way Romans have people registered or the way they tax people. They are registered in the cities they were currently living in, and not by tribes.

Registered by tribal origin would be nightmare to administer, and being unproductive to have people move around just to register.

Clearly you have no clues as to how the roman census work or how they tax people.

You seemed to persist on making excuses and assumptions based on faulty and exaggerated account by gospel author.

And in the gospel of Matthew (GoM), there were no mention of Roman census in his account of Jesus' birth. In fact, there is no mention of Joseph and pregnant Mary travelling from Galilee to Bethlehem. It would seemed that they were already living in Bethlehem.

The only time Nazareth is mentioned, is when Joseph decided it was not safe to live in Judaea, when he heard news that Herod's son Archelaus was in power, so they migrated from Egypt to Nazareth.

The GoM clearly telling a very different story to that of the GoL.

Personally I think both gospels invented their own nativity stories. That's why their stories are different.

 

[McBell]

If other JW's are like you I hope never to meet any.

I know that at the very least least Pegg is not much like JayJayDee.
At least here on RF.

I do not agree with much of Pegg's beliefs, but I do respect and like her.

 

[Parsimony]

Do yourself a favor and point out a real Christian who is not swayed by his peers in the scientific community into defecting from belief in the Creator God as the intelligence behind all the design in nature. Either we are believers or we are defectors. I am not a defector and I see through through the whole charade that science is touting. There is a cunning deceiver at work in the world and he has been very successful from the beginning by exploiting the frailty of the human ego. You think there is no peer pressure in the scientific world? Think again.

I'm guessing that you don't consider any non-JWs to be "true" Christians anyway. However, a person doesn't have to be a JW in order to believe in a Creator. To say that one can either believe in a Creator or accept evolution, but not both, is a false dichotomy. What exactly prevents someone from, say, believing that the Universe was fine-tuned by God to allow humans to develop via evolution? Theistic evolutionists do exist. Alternatively, one can just as well believe that evolution is false while disbelieving in a deity (they may hold that some other, possibly as yet undiscovered, mechanism was responsible for our development).

I think, all these biologists want to categorize every kind of organism according to a thing of kingdom, phylum, etc. Where does that come from? Why do they consider a British white supremacist political system as the ideal means to study biology?

That sounds awfully close to a form of "argumentum ad Hitlerum": If a concept originated in a white supremacist political system, then it's bad, regardless of what the concept is or what it has to deal with.

 

[Shad]

Maybe you don’t know, [how can that be possible for a GENIUS LIKE YOU], but when you discuss these specific verses the word “virgin” is the main point of the argument.

You could say, I don’t know, but since you are a GENIUS your pride prevents you from doing it. I can’t blame you GENIUS.

Listen son, you post two verse and asked a general question. You never asked for translation or anything like that. You asked for an opinion which I gave. It is not my problem you have issues forming properly structured sentences which prevent you from communicated your ideas. The verse has nothing to do with the census thus is a red herring which is fallacy.

Why would I say I do not know when you are so incompetent that you didn't put forward anything regarding virgin. You are projecting you thoughts of what you wanted me to do but failed to be competent enough to communicate that. Go back to school, get a tutor or think before you post.

 

[Shad]

Why would the Romans want people to enrol for the census, by tribal origin?

It doesn't make sense, because the Romans wouldn't know which people belonged to which tribe.

That's not the way Romans have people registered or the way they tax people. They are registered in the cities they were currently living in, and not by tribes.

Registered by tribal origin would be nightmare to administer, and being unproductive to have people move around just to register.

Clearly you have no clues as to how the roman census work or how they tax people.

You seemed to persist on making excuses and assumptions based on faulty and exaggerated account by gospel author.

And in the gospel of Matthew (GoM), there were no mention of Roman census in his account of Jesus' birth. In fact, there is no mention of Joseph and pregnant Mary travelling from Galilee to Bethlehem. It would seemed that they were already living in Bethlehem.

The only time Nazareth is mentioned, is when Joseph decided it was not safe to live in Judaea, when he heard news that Herod's son Archelaus was in power, so they migrated from Egypt to Nazareth.

The GoM clearly telling a very different story to that of the GoL.

Personally I think both gospels invented their own nativity stories. That's why their stories are different.

Roman sorted by tribe after the Census was taken not before, as per my links. They never had a single tribe to a census. The Biblical story is nonsense for a theological purpose since Jesus need to match Mirch but failed to do so. This narrative is a clever but failed attempt to correct this mistake

 

[Shad]

Here is the context of what we are discussing, GENIUS.

LK 2:2 This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria.
LK 2:3 And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city.
LK 2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,
LK 2:5 in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child.

IF John BELONGS TO THE TRIBE OF JUDAH, BUT WAS BORN AND RAISE IN GALILEE, HE WOULD HAVE TO REGISTER IN JUDAH, AND NOT THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF GALILEE, FOR SIMPLE REASON THAT NOT ALL THEM BELONGS TO THE TRIBE OF JUDAH EVEN IF SOME OF THEM WERE BORN IN JUDAH BUT DO NOT BELONG TO THE TRIBE OF JUDAH, THEY HAVE TO STAY OR GO TO THEIR OWN CITY.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE GENIUS: SUPPOSED THERE WERE 100 FAMILIES LIVING IN THE CITY OF NAZARETH, BORN AND RAISE THERE, OUT OF 100 FAMILIES ONLY 2 OF THEM BELONGS TO THE TRIBE JUDAH. NOW, HOW MANY SHOULD GO TO JUDAH TO REGISTER? ONLY 2 GENIUS AND REST IF THEY BELONG TO THAT DISTRICT STAYS OR THEY AIN’T GOIN NOWHERE.

YOU DON’T NEED TO HAVE AN IQ OF 140 TO UNDERSTAND THIS.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW GENIUS?

Congratulation, it took you 5 posts just to get back to the proper context. You are almost at the level of my 13 yr old nephew when it comes to staying focused.

A Syrian governor would not conduct a census on a province they did not control since the tax burden was on the governor first then the citizens under him Also he was governor after the event in question. So again pure nonsense.

None would go to Juhah since the census was based on residence not birth.

No you do not but apparently you need an iq greater of 70 to read links that prove you wrong. This what happens when you get your education from a cult.

You are hilarious, you have been refuted by historical facts but ignore this since it would prove your cult is wrong. Good think Biblical scholarship is done by competent people not members of a fringe cult

 

[Shad]

Maybe you don’t know, [how can that be possible for a GENIUS LIKE YOU], but when you discuss these specific verses the word “virgin” is the main point of the argument.

You could say, I don’t know, but since you are a GENIUS your pride prevents you from doing it. I can’t blame you GENIUS.

Actually by providing the parameter regarding Immanuel you shifted focus to this point. Sadly since you lack reading and writing comprehension skills you are obvious to this fact. Go back to school and take a few English classes again. Maybe you will figure it out one day like everyone else with an education about grade 9.