Has any believer here ever called into the Atheist Experience?

[Koldo]

In that moment when the thief acknowledged his need for Jesus to save him he was transformed by Christ, by His love and grace. Salvation is a gift and occurs the instant one believes and accepts it from Christ.

What do you mean by 'transformed'?

 

[InChrist]

What do you mean by 'transformed'?

Made a new creation in Christ.

...Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he isa new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If you have lost faith in humanity maybe it’s time to reconsider having faith in the One who offers to save humanity.

Thanks, but I lost faith there as well. And in America. Now I'm like John Lennon in Imagine and God. Imagine there's no god or country. It's easy if you try. And I don't believe in Jesus or Kennedy or Buddha or Zimmerman. And like him, I consider these transitions growth.

 

[Koldo]

Made a new creation in Christ.

...Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he isa new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

That means zilch to me though. Let me use an example to illustrate the problem: I have just now made you a new person in Koldo. That doesn't really mean anything to you, right?

What does it mean in practice to be made a new creation in Christ then?

 

[InChrist]

And now you are supporting Dillahunty's argument.

No, I am not. His argument does not acknowledge that a criminal must still face and pay the penalty for crimes here on earth.. like the thief being executed on the cross for his crime(s) did. Nor does he address the fact that all sins were paid for by Jesus Christ in full. One cannot simply escape paying their own eternal penalty unless they humbly admit their sins and accept Jesus’ payment on their behalf. So that contradicts what Dillahunty is saying, but should make him happy and satisfied with God’s justice, although He graciously offers mercy and change. So basically Dillahunty, you, or anyone else who refuses Christ’s eternal payment will get to pay their own penalty.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I am not. His argument does not acknowledge that a criminal must still face and pay the penalty for crimes here on earth.. like the thief being executed on the cross for his crime(s) did. Nor does he address the fact that all sins were paid for by Jesus Christ in full. One cannot simply escape paying their own eternal penalty unless they humbly admit their sins and accept Jesus’ payment on their behalf. So that contradicts what Dillahunty is saying, but should make him happy and satisfied with God’s justice, although He graciously offers mercy and change. So basically Dillahunty, you, or anyone else who refuses Christ’s eternal payment will get to pay their own penalty.

T

That is not germane to his argument. So yes, you are supporting him. I do believe that his example involved someone that never saw secular justice either. It shows that there is no justice in the Christian belief system. And no, part of Dillahunty's argument was that they did acknowledge their sins to God. It was too late to acknowledge them to other people or have anything done about them.

 

[InChrist]

That means zilch to me though. Let me use an example to illustrate the problem: I have just now made you a new person in Koldo. That doesn't really mean anything to you, right?

What does it mean in practice to be made a new creation in Christ then?

It means that a person gives their life to Jesus Christ, they are changed and He lives in them by the power of the Holy Spirit. In practice, it is a daily willing choice to live for Christ, seek His direction and please Him, rather than serving self.



“A Christian has been “born again” of the Spirit of God (Jn 3:3-8) through “the Word of God” (1 Pt 1:23) by believing the gospel (Rom 1:16) and is a “new creature” (2 Cor 5:17) in Christ, having been “created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph 2:10). If we trust Him to do so, surely God will open the right doors, guide each step of every Christian’s life, and provide the means of fulfilling the “good works” which He has ordained for each of us.



The Christian Life :: by Dave Hunt

 

[InChrist]

T

That is not germane to his argument. So yes, you are supporting him. I do believe that his example involved someone that never saw secular justice either. It shows that there is no justice in the Christian belief system. And no, part of Dillahunty's argument was that they did acknowledge their sins to God. It was too late to acknowledge them to other people or have anything done about them.

No, I am not supporting Dillahunty. You can say it a million times, but you are off base. The reason Dillahunty can’t understand God’s justice or mercy is because he has no concept of what it means to repent or submit one’s life to Jesus to save him from his sins. Therefore he is clueless.
I am sure that the infinite Creator knows how to apply perfect justice while also showing mercy. Certainly, He understands what He’s doing in balancing the two, more than any finite atheist.

 

[sayak83]

That's an interesting comment. I DO call myself a humanist, but I have had to redefine what I mean by that as I too have lost faith in humanity and have a grim prognosis for the future of life on earth due to human failing. Once, I would have said that as a humanist, I consider man a noble creature capable of greatness, who will improve the human condition by replacing faith with reason as it did when it turned monarchies into egalitarian democracies with guaranteed individual rights, and sterile systems like alchemy, astrology, and creationism into chemistry, astronomy, and evolutionary science.

Now I believe that only a fraction of the human race is noble, that that contingent could accomplish those things if allowed to, but that they won't be allowed to. The human race will ignore its noble contingent, its decent and intelligent contingent, and continue damaging the world and introducing untold gratuitous suffering.

In short, I no longer respect humanity nor necessarily am its champion. Wouldn't the world be a better place if man disappeared? I think so. Not for man, but for all other life. With that attitude, can I still call myself a humanist? My naturalistic metaphysics and rational ethics haven't changed, nor my empirical epistemology, so it's basically the same world view, but after witnessing the last several years, I've lost faith in man. I think that still humanism. I still believe that if the human condition is to improve, it will be man that does it, even if I think it's unlikely to happen any time soon.

I do not believe that earth would be better off without humans....after all it is not that other species are somehow more noble than humans. I also believe that the optimistic view of humanity that many people have had is because of historical whitewashing. While the great enlightenment philosophers were writing their treatises on human rights and liberty, they were happily living in societies whose wealth and power came from colonial genocides and plunder of Amerindian, African and Asian peoples. Greek philosophers wrote while sitting in Athens that had a more extensive slave labor system than even Rome (as % of population). The Han Chinese civilization had been built by systematic conquest of cultural genocide of hundreds of regional cultures so that now 95% of China is ethnically Han when in 2000 BCE, the Han were a minority in China. The same policy is simply continuing in Tibet and among the Muslims in China today. The current Japanese people have not lived forever in Japan as their religious beliefs say, but they were Korean immigrants who came and conquered and displaced native tribes over a 1000 year period...their remnants still live in parts of Northern Japan islands. The list goes on. My frank assessment is that human communities have cooperated and coexisted only when either there is some external threat or the balance of power is roughly equal. As soon as none of these is true, we have sought to accumulate power and wealth by exploiting and eliminating other groups by force. Then we have legitimized or whitewashed this aspect from our consciousness using words like "for God" or "for the Queen" or "for the Nation" or "for the working class" etc. I am yet to see anything that is different today compared to the past. Slavery and serfdom is gone not because of high ideals but because mechanizing has made it more convenient to use machines to do the jobs that slaves used to do. Remove mechanization and I guarantee you, slavery will be back and flourishing. Democracies have always been the most efficient system for commercially oriented states (like greek cities and other seafaring trading cities of ancient age) and as modern capitalism has made commercial systems more prevalent over agrarian societies.... democracies have gained in dominance. That is why communist states and states which depend on raw materials (like oil or gas) and not commerce tend to be autocratic even in today's world. Human beings are primarily opportunists and exploiters as a species (that is our niche so to speak) and our "progress" is basically about becoming better at finding and exploiting opportunities be they other resources, the earth or other human groups.

 

[Sheldon]

We are not talking theological niceties. We are discussing Christians and what they believe. You may like to believe that your version of Christianity are the "true Christians" but there ain't no sich animal. Christians come in all shapes and sizes. And yes, I do agree that just about every OSAS Christian is in the bottom quarter of Christianity because their delusion allows them to excuse almost any bad acts that they perform, sadly they are still Christians.

No true Scotsman fallacies aside, it's always a bizarre rationale to me, that can cite the actions of a totalitarian dictator with the power of life and death over every man woman and child in the largest country on earth, and several other nations as well, for decades. Who also happens to find it expedient to distance his regime from the orthodox Christianity that endorsed the absolute power of the previous regimes, and the countries that are hostile to his regime, by trying to forcibly eradicate religion from the populace, as a benchmark for the morals of all atheists or atheism?

Yet people born in the same free democratic republic as them, who use the same bible as them, and come to one of the roughly 200 different sects and denominations in the US, 45k globally, are somehow not Christian's at all.

I'd say it's a stretch, but it's simply nuts.

 

[Sheldon]

The reason Dillahunty can’t understand God’s justice or mercy is because he has no concept of what it means to repent or submit one’s life to Jesus to save him from his sins.

Nonsense, not only is this a no true Scotsman fallacy, but he was a devout Christian.

 

[Sheldon]

I am sure that the infinite Creator knows how to apply perfect justice while also showing mercy

You've not read the bible then, or believe in a different deity?

I'd also love to see you demonstrate a shred of objective evidence to support this claim to absolute certainty?

Though as usual I shan't hold my breath.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I am not supporting Dillahunty. You can say it a million times, but you are off base. The reason Dillahunty can’t understand God’s justice or mercy is because he has no concept of what it means to repent or submit one’s life to Jesus to save him from his sins. Therefore he is clueless.
I am sure that the infinite Creator knows how to apply perfect justice while also showing mercy. Certainly, He understands what He’s doing in balancing the two, more than any finite atheist.

Since he was a very very sincere Christian you would almost certainly be wrong there. And if you went on the show when he was hosting and you if you tried to debate the Bible with him he would probably tear you up. He was a far more serious student of the Bible than the vast majority of Christians.

 

[leroy]

The title says it all. Has anyone called the Atheist Experience? Who was the host that day? How did you think that you did? And if possible can you link the video?

I always thought that the calls are fakes / those who call are just actors pretending to be theist

There is a similar channel in spanish where the host openly admits that the callers are acting, so I simply assumed that all similar chanels are like that .

 

[KWED]

Yes, the "low hanging fruit" arguments. I've tried raising the bar of discussions with many atheist debaters on this many times. Occasionally I find those who hear the arguments and offer valid points of view that differ, but the norm is more just assuming what I am saying is the same low-hanging fruit arguments they are skilled at swatting down.

I've pretty much been convinced that's because that is the limit of their own understandings of these things, and that is why they are "unbelievers". But then so am I. The god they don't believe in, and the reasons for it, is the same god I don't believe in either. I am a rationalist, but I don't stop there. Richard Dawkins' god for instance, is pretty much the God of fundamentalist beliefs and nothing more elevated than that. I'm an atheist too, if that's the standard.

As I said, I've not listed to these folks, and maybe they have deeper more philosophical views, rather than the typical Noah's Ark can't be really real type debunking beliefs. While those are useful for a fundamentalist questioning those types of beliefs for themselves, they don't speak to anything deeper than that for me.

It's not a done deal once you accept the earth isn't 6000 years old and that donkeys can't really talk in human language. Deconstruction is the easy part. But where do you go from there? A purely physicalist view of reality is functionally as mythological as flying horses are.

Maybe you can point me to some time markers in the video, as I really don't have the inclination to listen to 1 1/2 hour videos.

OK. What are the lofty apples that support your version of the supernatural?

 

[KWED]

That is a false description of biblical morality.

Thanks for the detailed and considered rebuttal. Makes a change from religionists just making assertions.

 

[KWED]

No, it’s not accurate.

Thanks for elaborating on your earlier explanation. That cleared up a couple of points nicely.

 

[KWED]

The moral argument you put forth is actually wrong. Just becoming a Christian does not let a person off the hook regarding divine judgement. One has to have genuine and lasting repentance for previous wrong and evil actions, must own up to it publicly and must accept whatever punishment is given by the justice system or the aggrieved party (though the aggrieved party is encouraged to forgive people who show genuine repentance). Christianity involves the total transformation and reform of the inner character through the miraculous action of the holy spirit which is basically described as turning towards christ or becoming christ-like. If a person is still hiding his crimes from the public or is afraid of facing whatever associated punishments...then the transformation has not actually happened. Without such a transformation, judgement remains. The basic argument is sound...since the point of judgement is not retribution but reform...once a person has reformed, true justice is mercy and forgiveness.

However, Christianity is still laden with problematic concepts of sin, hell etc. and so it does not go far enough as a complete and self-consistent moral philosophy.

But you accept that if a person genuinely and sincerely repents and accepts Jesus on their deathbed, then there is no divine punishment for their earthly sins, even if they were Hitler or Stalin. So if they weren't punished during their life, they get off scot free. They might even be living in paradise alongside their victims.

 

[KWED]

While the scriptures offer forgiveness and eternal life through Jesus Christ to anyone who truly repents and turns away from their sinful behavior, no where is one given a pass to avoid the consequences of of their sin or law breaking. One may get saved by Christ and still go to jail or face whatever penalty is due for their crimes.

If the person avoids punishment in this world, then yes, then there would be a "free pass".

Example. If Stalin had genuinely and sincerely repented and accepted Jesus on his death bed (not completely fanciful, after all he did train to be a priest as a young man), he would now be in paradise and would have received zero punishment for the untold death and suffering he caused. He may well run into some of his victims, which would be nice for them.

 

[KWED]

In that moment when the thief acknowledged his need for Jesus to save him he was transformed by Christ, by His love and grace. Salvation is a gift and occurs the instant one believes and accepts it from Christ.

So a free pass then