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Has evolution facts destroyed Adam?

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
first I'll ask, do you believe that all life came from Adam and Eve? that all human beings are the descendants of these 2 people?

Yes, I do ... I thought that was the OP about and that's what we have been discussing...evolution or Creation of which the first is Adam and Eve.

Clarification : not all life - just mankind. Animals are a separate creation.
 

McBell

Unbound
Of course God did it but I have provided scientific arguments that refutes evolution which you guys couldn't show any evidence for.
Really?

Where?
Cause it was not presented in this thread....

And no, you inability and or unwillingness to understand does not count as refuting..
 

jonman122

Active Member
Yes, I do ... I thought that was the OP about and that's what we have been discussing...evolution or Creation of which the first is Adam and Eve.

Clarification : not all life - just mankind. Animals are a separate creation.


Then I might have to blow your mind with this

Functional extinction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or more specifically, this

Inbreeding depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what these 2 pages will explain, the second in greater detail, is that 2 human beings CANNOT sustain a population. If Adam and Eve were the first 2 humans, humanity would, at this moment, be extinct.

and to refute your first point in the previous post, there is this:

Comparing the chimpanzee and human genomes | The Human Genome

the paper cited by the guy at your link was citing a paper from 1975, this is from 2005. It shows that, even after DNA insertions and deletions are taken in to account, the chimp DNA is still 96% similar to ours (while being 99% before insertions and deletions)

I forgot to add, If you are vehemently against wikipedia, I can go to the bottom to the referenced sources and get the data you need there instead, although it will lead to the exact same conclusion.
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Then I might have to blow your mind with this

Blow my mind ? Oh come on - it didn't even move a single hair on my head.


It only talks about scenarios that may happen not a proven theory that it will necessarily happen. Also the scenarios it provides does not apply to Adam and Eve at all.


or more specifically, this

Inbreeding depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what these 2 pages will explain, the second in greater detail, is that 2 human beings CANNOT sustain a population. If Adam and Eve were the first 2 humans, humanity would, at this moment, be extinct.

Once again, these are scenarios that may happen - not any proven theory that it will happen in such cases. Here's some quotes from the article that renders your guaranteed application of this to Adam and Eve invalid :

"Although severe inbreeding depression in humans seems to be highly uncommon and not widely known, there have been several cases of apparent forms of inbreeding depression in human populations"

"Inbreeding depression is not a phenomenon that will inevitably occur. "

"Under most circumstances, this is a rare occurrence though, as the gene pool cannot become too great (thereby increasing the odds of new deleterious alleles appearing through mutation) nor too small (resulting in outright inbreeding depression)."

and to refute your first point in the previous post, there is this:

Comparing the chimpanzee and human genomes | The Human Genome

the paper cited by the guy at your link was citing a paper from 1975, this is from 2005. It shows that, even after DNA insertions and deletions are taken in to account, the chimp DNA is still 96% similar to ours (while being 99% before insertions and deletions)

I forgot to add, If you are vehemently against wikipedia, I can go to the bottom to the referenced sources and get the data you need there instead, although it will lead to the exact same conclusion.

Already you have moved down from 99% to 96% in a matter of few hours - so you can see the credibility of that yourself. Anyway, as I have stated that percentage really don't matter and you haven't been able to answer regarding the first DNA and the cut off percentage for different ancestor. So it really does't matter whether it is 99% or 90%.

Gotta go now...Peace.
 

jonman122

Active Member
to fully quote what you missed, "Darwin had married his first cousin, Emma Wedgwood. He later became concerned that inbreeding within his own family would adversely affect the health of his own children. The Darwins had ten children, but three died before the age of ten. Of the surviving children, three of the six who had long-term marriages did not have any children.[4][5][6] As with animals, this phenomenon tends to occur in isolated, rural populations that are cut off to some degree from other areas of civilization."

With 2 people who are seperate, every one of their offspring will be related by their genes, they will be brothers and sisters, which are even less genetically diverse than Darwins offspring (born of first cousins, not brothers and sisters), and they had problems breeding even well outside of the family line. The reason this isn't well recorded in humans is that the humans that do it die off, and nobody cares because we have billions of others to carry on our species.

The fact is, if you stuck 2 humans on an island and told them they were stuck there until the end of time, even if they decided it was a good idea to bring kids in to whatever life that would be, they would eventually die off because they would all be related to one another so closely that there would be no genetic diversity. Inbreeding depression would most likely occur in this situation, which is practically the exact same situation Adam and Eve are described as having in the bible once kicked out of eden. Just the 2 of them, kicked out together.

and if you had actually read ANY of that page, you'd see that all of the portions you tried to cite specifically talked about small POPULATIONS of people, as in MULTIPLE FAMILIES of human beings, not just 2 human beings. When you have a sufficiently large gene pool, inbreeding depression won't happen but with 2 people? there is no gene pool to speak of.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
to fully quote what you missed, "Darwin had married his first cousin, Emma Wedgwood. He later became concerned that inbreeding within his own family would adversely affect the health of his own children. The Darwins had ten children, but three died before the age of ten. Of the surviving children, three of the six who had long-term marriages did not have any children.[4][5][6] As with animals, this phenomenon tends to occur in isolated, rural populations that are cut off to some degree from other areas of civilization."

With 2 people who are seperate, every one of their offspring will be related by their genes, they will be brothers and sisters, which are even less genetically diverse than Darwins offspring (born of first cousins, not brothers and sisters), and they had problems breeding even well outside of the family line. The reason this isn't well recorded in humans is that the humans that do it die off, and nobody cares because we have billions of others to carry on our species.

The fact is, if you stuck 2 humans on an island and told them they were stuck there until the end of time, even if they decided it was a good idea to bring kids in to whatever life that would be, they would eventually die off because they would all be related to one another so closely that there would be no genetic diversity. Inbreeding depression would most likely occur in this situation, which is practically the exact same situation Adam and Eve are described as having in the bible once kicked out of eden. Just the 2 of them, kicked out together.

and if you had actually read ANY of that page, you'd see that all of the portions you tried to cite specifically talked about small POPULATIONS of people, as in MULTIPLE FAMILIES of human beings, not just 2 human beings. When you have a sufficiently large gene pool, inbreeding depression won't happen but with 2 people? there is no gene pool to speak of.

Nay....a common notion....but scripture doesn't say that.

Man was created...Day Six.
Male and female.
No names....no law....no restrictions....no garden...
'Go forth be fruitful and multiply. Subdue all things.
Man as a dominant species.

We did.

Chapter Two is NOT a retelling of Chapter One.
Chapter Two has all the earmarks of a science experiment.
A chosen specimen.
Ideal living conditions.
Conditioning.
Anesthesia.
Surgery.
Cloning.
Genetic engineering.

And then the specimens are released back into the environment.

But they were not alone.
Note Cain's problem.

btw Eve did not have a navel.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
to fully quote what you missed, "Darwin had married his first cousin, Emma Wedgwood. He later became concerned that inbreeding within his own family would adversely affect the health of his own children. The Darwins had ten children, but three died before the age of ten. Of the surviving children, three of the six who had long-term marriages did not have any children.[4][5][6] As with animals, this phenomenon tends to occur in isolated, rural populations that are cut off to some degree from other areas of civilization."

With 2 people who are seperate, every one of their offspring will be related by their genes, they will be brothers and sisters, which are even less genetically diverse than Darwins offspring (born of first cousins, not brothers and sisters), and they had problems breeding even well outside of the family line. The reason this isn't well recorded in humans is that the humans that do it die off, and nobody cares because we have billions of others to carry on our species.

The fact is, if you stuck 2 humans on an island and told them they were stuck there until the end of time, even if they decided it was a good idea to bring kids in to whatever life that would be, they would eventually die off because they would all be related to one another so closely that there would be no genetic diversity. Inbreeding depression would most likely occur in this situation, which is practically the exact same situation Adam and Eve are described as having in the bible once kicked out of eden. Just the 2 of them, kicked out together.

and if you had actually read ANY of that page, you'd see that all of the portions you tried to cite specifically talked about small POPULATIONS of people, as in MULTIPLE FAMILIES of human beings, not just 2 human beings. When you have a sufficiently large gene pool, inbreeding depression won't happen but with 2 people? there is no gene pool to speak of.

I personally know people who married their cousins and have a perfectly healthy and happy family (children and even grand children). Not to mention, it is not uncommon to find marriage between cousins in some cultures.

Once again, you are trying to use what might have happened in certain scenario as an evidence to show that it will happen for sure. Just because it happened for someone, does not mean it would have happened for Adam and Eve, especially since it is not only not a proven theory but rather highly uncommon for humans. So your argument in this regard have no weight whatsoever.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I personally know people who married their cousins and have a perfectly healthy and happy family (children and even grand children). Not to mention, it is not uncommon to find marriage between cousins in some cultures.

Once again, you are trying to use what might have happened in certain scenario as an evidence to show that it will happen for sure. Just because it happened for someone, does not mean it would have happened for Adam and Eve, especially since it is not only not a proven theory but rather highly uncommon for humans. So your argument in this regard have no weight whatsoever.

So...Adam and Eve were not an isolated couple?.....no Garden?

If Eve is of Adam's flesh....she is a clone.
Adam's twin sister.
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
So...Adam and Eve were not an isolated couple?.....no Garden?

If Eve is of Adam's flesh....she is a clone.
Adam's twin sister.
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride.

If God can create Adam out of nothing, why can't He create Eve after Adam ? The same way Jesus(pbuh) is born without a Father - but that's why these are called Miracles (which God especially chooses to do outside of the natural process).

The Muslim View of Creation - Understanding Islam
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If God can create Adam out of nothing, why can't He create Eve after Adam ? The same way Jesus(pbuh) is born without a Father - but that's why these are called Miracles (which God especially chooses to do outside of the natural process).

The Muslim View of Creation - Understanding Islam

I don't believe Adam stood up from the dust, as if a miracle....however....

We ALL are made of dust.
Everything that your body is has been taken up from the ground.

To say that Adam is made of dust is correct.

To say that Adam is not chosen...would be incorrect.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
I don't believe Adam stood up from the dust, as if a miracle....however....

We ALL are made of dust.
Everything that your body is has been taken up from the ground.

To say that Adam is made of dust is correct.

To say that Adam is not chosen...would be incorrect.

Yes, but there's more than mud involved in our creation, right ? We need our parents to come into existence into the form (created out of mud) . How did Adam(pbuh) come into existence without a parent (just mud) ? That's the miracle.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Yes, but there's more than mud involved in our creation, right ? We need our parents to come into existence into the form (created out of mud) . How did Adam(pbuh) came into that form without a parent ? That's the miracle.

Evolution.
Man was created as a species on Day Six.
No names, no law, no garden...male and female.
( I don't believe in a Day of God as one rotation of the earth)

Adam is a chosen son.
The Garden was a place of alteration.

The alteration was extensive and included the cloning of Adam for a twin sister.....for a bride.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Evolution.
Man was created as a species on Day Six.
No names, no law, no garden...male and female.
( I don't believe in a Day of God as one rotation of the earth)

Adam is a chosen son.
The Garden was a place of alteration.

The alteration was extensive and included the cloning of Adam for a twin sister.....for a bride.

Not according to my scripture, Sorry.
"He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised:But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!" (Al Qur'an 32:7-9)

Even evolutionist won't believe in your version of evolution. But if you want to play with terminology and call God's first(or subsequent) creation of Man as evolution...you are free to do so.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Not according to my scripture, Sorry.
"He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised:But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!" (Al Qur'an 32:7-9)

Even evolutionist won't believe in your version of evolution. But if you want to play with terminology and call God's first(or subsequent) creation of Man as evolution...you are free to do so.

This does not remove evolution.
You are made of clay.....so am I.

Adam was the first ...son...of God.
Having received that breathe of spirit.

Before the Garden, Man did exist.
But only as species....a dominant species.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
This does not remove evolution.
You are made of clay.....so am I.

Adam was the first ...son...of God.
Having received that breathe of spirit.

Before the Garden, Man did exist.
But only as species....a dominant species.

Sorry, I do not agree with that.

Adam(pbuh) is the first man created and the first man in the Garden.

"And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated. [ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." (Al Qur'an 7:11-12)
...
""O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." (Al Qur'an 7:19)

Also, receiving Spirit from God doesn't make one Son. It still is a Creation of God.
 

Gurtej

Member
Sorry, I do not agree with that.

Adam(pbuh) is the first man created and the first man in the Garden.

"And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated. [ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." (Al Qur'an 7:11-12)
...
""O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." (Al Qur'an 7:19)

Also, receiving Spirit from God doesn't make one Son. It still is a Creation of God.

Sir I really hope u r not a science teacher in any school, else poor kids will pay for rest of the life. Evolution of man from animals is based on evidence not miracle faith and this is what u referring 2. If written in Quran so must be true.

Where is ur evidence that Adam was the first person? U only believ that coz u been born and brought with that teachings and its difficult for u to get over the fact that those teachings were wrong. I fully understand that as its not easy.

99.9% of scientists believe in evolution. They r master in their fields, u just need to look at this world around u and relize how must it has changed coz of science.

U tell me, wud u believe in scientists of 2013 or an illiterate man from whatever century? I know ur answer will be latter and I won't be surprised. Evolution is a fact, not miracle. Don't tell me u believe that earth was created in 6 days as this is what Quran says? If u do and if most of the Muslims do.. We should raise a petition of not allowing Muslims to be a teacher or a scientists etc as we want a better future.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Sir I really hope u r not a science teacher in any school, else poor kids will pay for rest of the life. Evolution of man from animals is based on evidence not miracle faith and this is what u referring 2. If written in Quran so must be true.

Where is ur evidence that Adam was the first person? U only believ that coz u been born and brought with that teachings and its difficult for u to get over the fact that those teachings were wrong. I fully understand that as its not easy.

99.9% of scientists believe in evolution. They r master in their fields, u just need to look at this world around u and relize how must it has changed coz of science.

U tell me, wud u believe in scientists of 2013 or an illiterate man from whatever century? I know ur answer will be latter and I won't be surprised. Evolution is a fact, not miracle. Don't tell me u believe that earth was created in 6 days as this is what Quran says? If u do and if most of the Muslims do.. We should raise a petition of not allowing Muslims to be a teacher or a scientists etc as we want a better future.

All rhetoric. This kind of haughty talk really doesn't suit, especially someone, who have not spoken a word of science in this thread let alone showing scientific evidence.

On the other hand, I have shown enough scientific evidence to refute evolution and did not use Qur'an as a reason to disprove it. Muslims don't have blind faith, we have faith based on evidence.

Yes, we do believe in whatever the Qur'an says because it is from the Almighty Creator because we have evidence for its Truth. But anyway it doesn't contradict with established/proven science one bit. And you should also note that science keeps changing but the Truth doesn't.

Also, I would be more worried about people like you teaching nonsense fairy tales to students in the name of science than someone using scientific reasoning to refute evolution.

If you are sincere about this topic, read this essay which scientifically analyses and refutes evolution in detail (yet in layman terms) :
http://www.discoveringislam.org/evolution_vs_islam.htm

That would be more productive and useful.

Peace.
 

McBell

Unbound
All rhetoric. This kind of haughty talk really doesn't suit, especially someone, who have not spoken a word of science in this thread let alone showing scientific evidence.
Oh, the irony...

On the other hand, I have shown enough scientific evidence to refute evolution
For the second time I flat out ask where?
Cause I have looked and it is NOT in this thread.

If you are sincere about this topic, read this essay which scientifically analyses and refutes evolution in detail (yet in layman terms) :
Evolution vs Islam

That would be more productive and useful.
except that your linked article does not refute evolution...

I know, I know, all those pesky facts keep getting in the way...
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Oh, the irony...


For the second time I flat out ask where?
Cause I have looked and it is NOT in this thread.


except that your linked article does not refute evolution...

I know, I know, all those pesky facts keep getting in the way...
I am sorry ... I am not a magician that I can cure willful ignorance. Please try somewhere else.
 

Gurtej

Member
I am sorry ... I am not a magician that I can cure willful ignorance. Please try somewhere else.

Everyone is asking a simple question, where is the fact the Adam was the first man except religious texts?

And if he was the first man created by Allah, how does this not disapprove evolution. So one has to be considered wrong ... Evolution or Adam.

Which one are u with?
 
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