Has india lost kashmir already?

[arimoff]

Wow, every land conflict that involves Muslims is Muslims land, sounds so naive and stupid that Muslims try to play innocent in every land conflict their in, Islam is relatively new religion but yet claims are made we lived there for thousands of years, no you didn't, Hindus lived there until Muslims started their conquest and converted all to Islam.

The proper way to say is all those Muslims living there for thousands of years are Hindus who were converted so Kashmir is part of India.

 

[nameless]

Why don't you ask the Kashmiri people themselves.

Yes, Kashmir was the Aryavarta of hindus, almost like of mecca for muslims. Kashmir solely belonged to hindus until the islamic conquests. They bloody muslim rulers persecuted and forced hindus to convert.

Persecution by Islamic Rulers
During the period of Islamic rule of the Kashmir valley hundreds of Hindu and Buddhist temples in Kashmir were destroyed.[1] As a result, Kashmiri Pandits gradually migrated to other parts of India to escape persecution. Many Kashmiri Pandits and Buddhists were converted which in time resulted in Kashmir becoming predominantly Muslim. The devastation wrought by Zulju, a Turkish general from Turkmenistan, in 1320, during his conquest of many regions of Kashmir Valley was especially noteworthy.[2]

Kashmiri Pundits - Persecution by muslims

Why don't you ask the Kashmiri people themselves.

The majority of original kashmiri people were persecuted by muslims, others were forced to convert to islam and the rest escaped to other places of India.

Sultan Sikandar Butshikan (1389–1413), the seventh Muslim ruler in Kashmir, and the second Sultan of the Kashmiri Sayyid Dynasty, is known for his oppression of non-Muslim populations, which caused many Kashmiri Pandits to leave the Kashmir valley.[3] Historians call him an iconoclast or idol-breaker and he is said to have killed several thousand Kashmiri Pandits and/or forced them to convert to Islam or flee.[4] During the reign of Butshikan, Islam was firmly established in Kashmir and the Hindu population fell drastically. Sultan Ali Shah and others followed suit.[5] There have been a few Muslim rulers who were tolerant towards the Pandits, however they were not able to ultimately alleviate the plight of the Pandits. From the 14th century due to the growth of Islam and forced conversions into Islam their numbers in the valley began to diminish and the Muslims by spreading Islam began to outnumber them. According to the oral history of Kashmiri Pandits, at one point, only eleven families of Pandits remained in the Valley. Walter Roper Lawrence, who visited Kashmir in 1889 as the British Land Settlement Commissioner, mentions this in his note on Kashmiri Pandits in his book 'The Valley of Kashmir'.[6]

the people who are now in the kashmir and not the true kashmiris. They were the mugals from afganisthan etc. They dont have any right to decide anything about kashmir.

Pakistan was separated from india for the reason muslims demanded they need a separate nation, and india agreed to their demand and pakistan was formed, muslims from muslim populated regions of india migrated to pakistan. If muslims in kashmir has interest to be part of India, they should migrate to pakisthan.

The voice of present population of kashmir should not be taken to consideration as the original kashmiris got expelled from kashmir to other places.

 

[nameless]

Kashmir is the Palestine of Asia

Non-sense. why there was no such claim at the time pakistan was separated from india?

Hindus are commiting a masjor genocide against the Muslims

Genocide already happened. But it was muslims towards true kashmiris (hindus)

Persecution by Islamic Rulers
During the period of Islamic rule of the Kashmir valley hundreds of Hindu and Buddhist temples in Kashmir were destroyed.[1] As a result, Kashmiri Pandits gradually migrated to other parts of India to escape persecution. Many Kashmiri Pandits and Buddhists were converted which in time resulted in Kashmir becoming predominantly Muslim. The devastation wrought by Zulju, a Turkish general from Turkmenistan, in 1320, during his conquest of many regions of Kashmir Valley was especially noteworthy.[2]
Sultan Sikandar Butshikan (1389–1413), the seventh Muslim ruler in Kashmir, and the second Sultan of the Kashmiri Sayyid Dynasty, is known for his oppression of non-Muslim populations, which caused many Kashmiri Pandits to leave the Kashmir valley.[3] Historians call him an iconoclast or idol-breaker and he is said to have killed several thousand Kashmiri Pandits and/or forced them to convert to Islam or flee.[4] During the reign of Butshikan, Islam was firmly established in Kashmir and the Hindu population fell drastically. Sultan Ali Shah and others followed suit.[5] There have been a few Muslim rulers who were tolerant towards the Pandits, however they were not able to ultimately alleviate the plight of the Pandits. From the 14th century due to the growth of Islam and forced conversions into Islam their numbers in the valley began to diminish and the Muslims by spreading Islam began to outnumber them. According to the oral history of Kashmiri Pandits, at one point, only eleven families of Pandits remained in the Valley. Walter Roper Lawrence, who visited Kashmir in 1889 as the British Land Settlement Commissioner, mentions this in his note on Kashmiri Pandits in his book 'The Valley of Kashmir'.[6]

i have many friends from the Kashmiri area and the Indians/Hindus are commiting enormous atrocities (murder rape genocide)

they are just propoganda by terrorists to separate kashmir from india. But this is true in case of pakisthan, there were 25% hindus in pakistan, now it is only 2 %.

Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and the Muslim Community

explain....

india already allowed land for muslims. For this reason hindus from pakistan migrated to india. If muslims in kashmir wants to live in muslim nation, they should migrate to pakistan.

 

[Sufi]

until Muslims started their conquest and converted all to Islam.

Your are being ridiculous again if the Muslims converted every Hindu how come the Muslims are still a minority in India you are truly mesjogge.

 

[nameless]

Your are being ridiculous again if the Muslims converted every Hindu how come the Muslims are still a minority in India you are truly mesjogge.

Pakistan and Bangladesh was in India before partition. The hindu muslim population ratio was 50:50, and these includes the places where muslims had not ruled. So it is true that Muslims converted every hindu whereever they ruled.

 

[Sufi]

Pakistan and Bangladesh was in India before partition. The hindu muslim population ratio was 50:50, and these includes the places where muslims had not ruled. So it is true that Muslims converted every hindu whereever they ruled.

You are deceptive try to back your fallacious points up with references next time.

 

[Sufi]

[youtube]6ckMzQq90FM[/youtube]
YouTube - Kashmir war crimes by Indian army..where is world conscience

[youtube]YKZNv4bDcEs[/youtube]
YouTube - Kashmir children attacked by Indian soliders

[youtube]Fi6lLjnEpq8[/youtube]
YouTube - Watch brutality of Indian Army in Kashmir Part1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRoBYd0owFg&feature=related

 

[England my lionheart]

Kashmir is the Palestine of Asia Hindus are commiting a masjor genocide against the Muslims there i have many friends from the Kashmiri area and the Indians/Hindus are commiting enormous atrocities (murder rape genocide) etc Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and the Muslim Community.

The Maharaja ceded Kashmir to India,if you had said Kashmir belongs to the Kashmir people i would agree,the fact that you say Muslim community implies that it belongs to the Ummah.

There are obvious Human rights issues on both sides,the people should come first but we know its not about the people.

 

[Bismillah]

nameless: You're arguing that people whose families have lived in Kashmir for hundreds of years are not Kashmiris. Pathetic, just because these people want no part in your political agenda doesn't give you the right to deny them the rule of self determination and are essentially advocating an apartheid system. It's interesting to note that you keep listing atrocities under Muslim rulers yet you don't bat an eye when Indian occupiers kill Kashmiri children.

England: Well what do the Kashmiri people want? Therein you'll find your answer. By the way when Western regimes prop up their own governments and assassinate legitimate rulers to set up oppressive dictatorships they are supporting terrorism, so by your reasoning they are terrorist regimes.

armioff: Do you come in every thread to support racist policies and oppression??

 

[Bismillah]

England:

I am all for self determination,what i am saying is if there were to be a referendum there are just two choices as independence would be unacceptable to India or Pakistan.

Who cares how many X amount of choices there are if Kashmiris are only concerned with choice y and z.

Pakistan is swamped with Terrorists because its a weak Government with no control,as for the crimes it commits Sharia law Hudood punishments are crimes on there own.

Every nation has committed crimes in its past. Your own nation is responsible for some of the greatest suffering and oppression bought upon the world. This and the fact that England has been a nation for thousands of years should indicate something, it takes time to develop. Especially when a country is confronted by warlike Westerners threading to "bomb you back to the stone age". Either way it's a lose/lose for Pakistan, yet you continue to complain about civil rights when the country was formed relatively overnight.

Pakistan should have actively engaged the terrorists a long long time ago

Haha there is no appeasing you is there. By the way there is evidence that India is helping to fund secessionists and the TTP in Pakistan to destabilize the government.

No, the Mahajara agreed to accede Kashmir to India.

You still haven't answered this

 

[gnomon]

I think both nations should probably back out and let the people of Kashmir of all ethnic groups try some self-determination. I say this because the notion that the people of Kashmir belong to either nation is a bit absurd. Just because the majority adhere to one of two major world religions does not equate them with the people of either nation. One need look no further than the state of Pakistan to see that the concept of one people is absurd.

One need look no further than Waziristan to see the difficulty in labeling groups of people, just because they may share a religion, as one people. The ethnic tribes of Waziristan have resisted outside control for centuries. Even against the Pakistan government.

Of course, whether or not a Kashmir devoid of Pakstan or India influence would be stable is doubtful. You can look at areas such as Waziristan where fighting between different tribes, between the tribes and the government of Pakistan as well as fighting between some tribes and the Taliban show that ethnicity appears to trump religion.

Of course we can see this same thing in the Middle East, Asia, the Americas, Africa and so on and so on. What's the solution? Hell if I know. A separate nation for every ethnic group on the planet? That would probably be a nightmare.

 

[nameless]

nameless: You're arguing that people whose families have lived in Kashmir for hundreds of years are not Kashmiris.

the US army could live in iraq for hundreds of years in iraq, and if they makes the same claim that they need separate nation for jews and christians in iraq after converting and expelling the iraqis? , will you support?

In the case of India, India already done so, India was so generous and allowed 30 % of its land for the muslims for its own nation, why it is needed once again? India would not exist if this continues, it is a slow poisoning.

Pathetic, just because these people want no part in your political agenda doesn't give you the right to deny them the rule of self determination and are essentially advocating an apartheid system.

nope, they dont have incase of kashmir, explain why india was partitioned.... explain why pakisthan was formed....

It's interesting to note that you keep listing atrocities under Muslim rulers yet you don't bat an eye when Indian occupiers kill Kashmiri children.

'Indian occupiers', lol. Your knowledge in history is so pathetic...
it is due to the barbarianism of the muslims that kashmir became a muslim populated state, so it is to be mentioned when deciding who are the kashmiris ...

The blame should be on terrorists in kashmir who wants to separate kashmir from india. It happens everywhere that locals gets killed when army attacks militants when they attempts to occupy the land, same like in iraq.

 

[nameless]

[youtube]6ckMzQq90FM[/youtube]
YouTube - Kashmir war crimes by Indian army..where is world conscience

[youtube]YKZNv4bDcEs[/youtube]
YouTube - Kashmir children attacked by Indian soliders

[youtube]Fi6lLjnEpq8[/youtube]
YouTube - Watch brutality of Indian Army in Kashmir Part1

[youtube]tRoBYd0owFg[/youtube]
YouTube - Indian Brutality

all these incidents are natural when army fights against terrorists. The same like what happened in iraq....
Let the terrorists stop attacks on locals of kashmir, and there will be peace in kashmir.
Terrorists kill mother-daughter duo in Kashmir

 

[nameless]

By the way there is evidence that India is helping to fund secessionists and the TTP in Pakistan to destabilize the government.

proof?

 

[Bismillah]

Nameless: Essentially you are arguing the same case that someone would argue for Native Americans, stating that the U.S.A should dissolve and a Native American nation should be created. Even though they are a sizable minority and almost all Americans have been here for generations. Your argument holds no water. Yes hundreds of years ago the first invaders were not Kashmiris. After the settled down and integrated within the local population they become Kashmiris. Thinking of them in any other way is discriminatory and you are essentially advocating apartheid.


“We have very little doubt that the Indians and the Israelis, that are all over Afghanistan with German passports pretending to be military contractors, are operating 17 camps along the Taliban regions training and arming terrorists."
Gordon Duff, Editor of Veterans Today


Framing Pakistan: how the pro-Israel media enables India’s surrogate warfare > Global > Redress Information & Analysis


"he Baloch Liberation Army (BLA) is a Baloch nationalist militant separatist organization." "Baloch liberation army is an Indian trained army formed by RAW as a counter insurgency tactic"


Balochistan Liberation Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

btw the idea of Pakistan came about after Nehru rejected Jinnah's points for unity between Hindus and Muslims. If there is one man responsible for partition it's Nehru.

 

[Bismillah]

all these incidents are natural when army fights against terrorists. The same like what happened in iraq....

Just like in Iraq the foreign occupiers have no right to be there and are directly responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians

 

[nameless]

Just like in Iraq the foreign occupiers have no right to be there and are directly responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians

from when did kashmir people were not the civilians of india?

 

[nameless]

Your argument holds no water. Yes hundreds of years ago the first invaders were not Kashmiris. After the settled down and integrated within the local population they become Kashmiris. Thinking of them in any other way is discriminatory and you are essentially advocating apartheid.

they settled in kashmir by persecuting kashmiris, and rest expelled to other states. The population who are advocating for partition is not the true kashmiri people. India granted pakistan to muslims for this reason, muslims in kashmir should migrate to pakistan if they dont need india, or pakisthan should be returned back to india, since at the time of partition hindus from pakisthan migrated to india but muslims of kashmir did not.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

“We have very little doubt that the Indians and the Israelis, that are all over Afghanistan with German passports pretending to be military contractors, are operating 17 camps along the Taliban regions training and arming terrorists."

Sorry Abibi you lost me with this comment. I tried to give you a chance to make your point and you just had to pull those Jews into it.

 

[Bismillah]

Sorry Abibi you lost me with this comment. I tried to give you a chance to make your point and you just had to pull those Jews into it.

It's a quote from the article. I didn't write it, it's just the first of articles to come up in my search. It's obvious that tension between Pakistan and India have always been high and it wouldn't surprise me that elements within the Indian government, either independently or ordered to, were engaged in various "unkosher" activities to destabilize Pakistan. Likewise, it wouldn't surprise me that Pakistan had done the same against India.

Anyway I'm going to post a final comment and leave it at that. Anyone with a basic understanding of South East History knows that the Muslim sultanates and empires achieved their rule through war. I understand that and I know that many Hindus and other religious minorities were persecuted by demented rulers living by a barbaric code of life. But among these emperors were also some of the most benevolent and pragmatic rulers of the time including Babur. Sure, there is a dark spot in many of their rule of religious intolerance and persecution. However, even more strongly is the good that came out of a Hindu Muslim land. The Dheli Sultanate and the Mughal Empire helped restore the prestige of India to heights that weren't heard since the demise of the Gupta Empire and raised India to a world class civilization for a long time. Even now the Taj Mahal, one of the most recognized cultural symbols of India, is a testimony to the good of their rule.

Associating and calling the descendants of these Muslims "barbarians" and labeling them as not being either Indian or, in the threads case, Kashmiri is ignorant prejudiced thinking. They have lived in that land for hundreds of years and are as rightful inhabitants. Denying their status as Kashmiri is not only wrong it is pointless. They are not going to leave Kashmir short of a forced exodus. It is idiotic to ignore what these people think and want and to believe that a military can stay and occupy the land which so detests their presence is foolish.

It is obvious that if things remain the same in Kashmir violence will only multiply and will cost Indian and Kashmiri lives. The brilliant "idea" mentioned previously that Kashmir was given to Pakistan as a home for Muslims is false. Less than 30% of Kashmir's population lives in this sparsely inhabited stretch of land and the largest concentration of Muslims is still within the disputed zone. Similarly the statement "give back Pakistan" is nonsensical in so many ways. Either you see immediately what and why is wrong with this statement and why it can never hope to be possible or you just don't have a clue.

In short the problems within Kashmir will multiply and will be a lose lose for everybody. The right to self determination would solve this problem and negate one of the biggest issues that prevent a lasting and meaningful peace between Pakistan and India as well as a common recruiting tool used to recruit jihadis all over the world. Is Kashmir really worth all the money, animosity, and lives

btw just like Hindus migrated to India, Muslims migrated to Pakistan. The status of of states like Kashmir was that there would be a plebiscite to determine who where the territory would belong. The Mahajara instead appealed to India for help in return for Kashmir.