Have Evangelicals Destroyed Christian Morality in the US?

[Buddha Dharma]

With constant pandering to every group possible

Are you sure this is evangelicals you're talking about? Evangelicals only evolve when absolutely forced, and they come kicking and screaming all the way.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Are you sure this is evangelicals you're talking about? Evangelicals only evolve when absolutely forced, and they come kicking and screaming all the way.

I am unsure if you are talking about evangelicals now. This is the group of people that has pushed people like Regan into power at their peak. They have evolved little and still produce a very bizarre part of American ethics that has become very inconsistent in modern age. They start pushing for American freedom when they enter politics yet the minute the decision comes to rid themselves of what they call burdensome such as religious suppression they do not want to support something as simple as freedom of religion.

Evangelicals are mixed heavily with Christian nationalists and historical revisionist that they just cannot produce a consistent ethical framework.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

@Sha'irullah okay! I wasn't sure where you were coming from. Now I get ya.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Those be the false one's.

But guys like David Jeremiaha, are very sincere Christians. I consider him evangelical.

I don't care to play "no true Scotsman", personally.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm certain that made him a pretty substantial income.

Some older sites says his net worth was around half a million. That's pretty modest and hard to believe for a media driven Christian evangelist. It's hard to find his present net worth actually. Search engines turn up pretty dry. Looks like he's keeping it secret.

I found this
http://home.earthlink.net/~19ranger57/dobson.htm

The section entitled

Focus on the Family
Summary of Net Worth, Net Profit and Revenue
For the years ended September 30, 1991-1996

And the following paragraph are of interest, suggesting he clears about 8 million a year.

The page looks a bit charlatan itself so i don't know how accurate it is

 

[ChristineM]

Dobson? He lives in a large house in one of the wealthiest gated communities near Colorado Springs. I suppose he has a bit of money to own such a house, but I have no idea how much money. I would not be surprised, however, if Dobson isn't very wealthy. I think he's more interested in power and influence than he is in personal wealth.

You are probably correct but $ 8 million a year buys a considerable amount of power and influence.

See my post #45 above

 

[Windwalker]

For further reading: The Death of Christianity in the US. An angry, but I think fairly accurate condemnation of today's Evangelical values.

Wow. I couldn't have said this better. From the article:

"The Evangelicals’ Jesus is satanic, and those who hustle this demon are “false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve” (2 Cor. 11:13-15, NIV).
....

I have always considered myself to be an evangelical, but I can no longer allow my name to be tarnished by that political party masquerading as Christian. Like many women and men of good will who still struggle to believe, but not in the evangelical political agenda, I too no longer want or wish to be associated with an ideology responsible for tearing humanity apart. But if you, dear reader, still cling to a hate-mongering ideology, may I humbly suggest you get saved."
​

I think it's high time Christians return the favor and now save God from these charlatans, like Dobson and company.

 

[Kenny]

Colorado Springs, where I live, is the home of over 300 Christian non-profit "ministries", including Focus on the Family. Focus on the Family is a large Evangelical organization founded by James Dobson that, among other things, seeks to influence politics in the US on all levels. It is especially notorious for its attacks on the rights of LGBT folks, but its activism doesn't stop there. It pushes a broad social and political agenda.

Some long time ago, I came across a chilling quote of Dobson's in the local newspaper. It was from around the time when he founded Focus on the Family. I can no longer recall the exact words he used but I believe this is an accurate paraphrase:

"People have got it wrong. They think Christian morals are about old ladies being nice, sweet, treating everyone fairly. But that's only the velvet glove of Christianity. We are going to show people the iron fist. We are going to change how people view Christianity. We are going to make sinners fear us."​

Now, I don't suppose everyone who is younger than about 40 these days is fully aware of how Christianity and Christian morals were most often thought of by most people back before James Dobson and other Evangelical leaders changed the public perception of the religion. However, I've heard more than one person my own age or older speak with regret about the "old days".

You see, back in the old days, the most popular view was that Christians -- if and when they lived up to their ideals -- had exemplary morals. In fact, it was not uncommon to think and speak of "true Christians" as the most moral people in any given community -- even the most moral people possible.

To call someone a "True Christian" in most communities was to say in effect that they treated everyone, regardless of their background (such as race, social and economic class, religion, etc) with fairness, dignity, and respect. It was to say that they were a gentle person who rigorously avoided unnecessarily hurting anyone, who readily forgave any slights against themselves, who ever sought to see the best in others (even people considered grievous sinners), and who strove to be the most humane person they themselves could be.

And that was just the start of it. In the popular imagination, a true Christian was the peak, the acme of human moral excellence. The phrase, true Christian, even at times was applied to people who were not Christians, as in, "He's Jewish, but he's more of a True Christian than most Christians".

Of course, there were people who didn't hold such a positive view of Christian morals, but they seemed to me a relatively small minority at the time. The main criticism you heard of Christians was that they didn't always live up to their ideals, not that their ideals were bad or evil.

I think it's very different today. The custom of praising someone for being a true Christian is almost unheard of now. So many people these days find that they disagree with what passes for core Christian values now -- anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights, anti-evolution, anti-climate change, pro prosperity gospel, and even willing to condone such evils as racism, sexism, sexual molestation, wealth inequality, and so forth if it is politically expedient to do so. Political power at all cost. That's what Christianity -- in moral terms -- has come to mean for so many people today.

I think Evangelicals -- the folks who by all accounts led this change -- were deeply unwise to do so. I suspect that the coming years will see interest in their brand of Christianity wane with most morally healthy people while it yet increases with the morally insane.

But what do you think?

For further reading: The Death of Christianity in the US. An angry, but I think fairly accurate condemnation of today's Evangelical values.

OH for the joys of faith...

Romans 5:
6 For when the time was right, the Anointed One came and died to demonstrate his love for sinners who were entirely helpless, weak, and powerless to save themselves.

7 Now, who of us would dare to die for the sake of a wicked person? We can all understand if someone was willing to die for a truly noble person. 8 But Christ proved God’s passionate love for us by dying in our place while we were still lost and ungodly!

9 And there is still much more to say of his unfailing love for us! For through the blood of Jesus we have heard the powerful declaration, “You are now righteous in my sight.” And because of the sacrifice of Jesus, you will never experience the wrath of God. 10 So if while we were still enemies, God fully reconciled us to himself through the death of his Son, then something greater than friendship is ours. Now that we are at peace with God, and because we share in his resurrection life, how much more we will be rescued from sin’s dominion!

11 And even more than that, we overflow with triumphant joy in our new relationship of living in harmony with God—all because of Jesus Christ!

I just love being an evangelical Christian.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I've said for years that Western Christianity is a farce.
What @Sunstone has alluded to is only part of the problem.

This is a faith based on a character who specifically preached against the prevalent values that seem to arise in an affluent, capitalistic society. Instead of applying those teachings and truly living as someone "not of this world", Christians in Western society have embraced their baser selves and given into worshiping their State in place of their Lord. They worship Caesar, to paraphrase their own book. And they have become quite adept at making excuses for why such behavior is not only acceptable, but it's something that should be emulated...

I'm an Atheist and I'm certainly not claiming that Biblical values are any kind of objective standard for morality or anything. But to claim faith in something, and then to actively work against your self-affirmed value system is disgusting to me. It's akin to a Child Protective Services advocate who molests children, or a Geologist who practices Steady State resource "management". A Christian who worships Caesar is a Fireman who makes a living as an arsonist.

 

[metis]

There is a similar trend among Catholics over here in France and Britain with regards to far-right nationalist, Eurosceptic parties i.e.

62 per cent of French Catholics voted for Macron | CatholicHerald.co.uk


62 per cent of French Catholics voted for Macron

More than three in five French Catholics voted for Emmanuel Macron in Sunday’s presidential election, a poll has said.

An IFOP poll for Pèlerin/La Croix found 62 per cent of Catholics voted for the independent candidate, with 71 per cent of regular Mass-goers choosing him over right-wing populist Marine Le Pen.

Macron fared slightly worse among “occasionally practising Catholics”, however, with only 54 per cent backing him compared to 46 per cent voting Le Pen.
​

Analysis | Catholics like the European Union more than Protestants do. This is why.

NL& SW-L -Did religion play a part in the Brexit vote?

JG: Yes. If you look at the 2014 European Parliamentary Election Study, in the run-up to the Brexit vote, it’s clear that in the United Kingdom, Catholics were supportive of the E.U., as were minority religions — Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists — whereas Evangelical Protestants were the most critical of the E.U. And a lot of the surveys that were done just before and after the Brexit vote, even though they weren’t very good at identifying different religious groups, found pretty consistently that the more Protestant you were, the more critical you were of the E.U. That may have made the difference: If those Protestants had voted the way the average citizen of the United Kingdom had, Brexit wouldn’t have passed.​

Which is to say, according to the statistical data, the more church-attendant or devout the Catholic, the more likely they are to support pro-EU centrists and liberals as opposed to the far-right, who fare better among Catholics who don't go to church.

In other words, the homilies at mass really must be getting through to some folk.

This is the opposite of what a lot of people think (e.g. that the religiously observant are naturally more right-wing, immigrant-hating, anti-social welfare, nationalistic etc.).

The biggest problem on both sides of the Atlantic is clearly with white, non-church attending "cultural Catholics" who view their religion in terms of heritage rather than belief.

But the interesting thing is that (at least in Britain) if your devoutly Evangelical the opposite applies: your way more likely than the average person to hate the EU. Would I be right in assuming its probably the same with American Evangelicals vis-a-vis Trump?

Thanks so much for this as I was not at all aware that the same trend has been found across the pond. Fascinating.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Colorado Springs, where I live, is the home of over 300 Christian non-profit "ministries", including Focus on the Family. Focus on the Family is a large Evangelical organization founded by James Dobson that, among other things, seeks to influence politics in the US on all levels. It is especially notorious for its attacks on the rights of LGBT folks, but its activism doesn't stop there. It pushes a broad social and political agenda.

Some long time ago, I came across a chilling quote of Dobson's in the local newspaper. It was from around the time when he founded Focus on the Family. I can no longer recall the exact words he used but I believe this is an accurate paraphrase:

"People have got it wrong. They think Christian morals are about old ladies being nice, sweet, treating everyone fairly. But that's only the velvet glove of Christianity. We are going to show people the iron fist. We are going to change how people view Christianity. We are going to make sinners fear us."​

Now, I don't suppose everyone who is younger than about 40 these days is fully aware of how Christianity and Christian morals were most often thought of by most people back before James Dobson and other Evangelical leaders changed the public perception of the religion. However, I've heard more than one person my own age or older speak with regret about the "old days".

You see, back in the old days, the most popular view was that Christians -- if and when they lived up to their ideals -- had exemplary morals. In fact, it was not uncommon to think and speak of "true Christians" as the most moral people in any given community -- even the most moral people possible.

To call someone a "True Christian" in most communities was to say in effect that they treated everyone, regardless of their background (such as race, social and economic class, religion, etc) with fairness, dignity, and respect. It was to say that they were a gentle person who rigorously avoided unnecessarily hurting anyone, who readily forgave any slights against themselves, who ever sought to see the best in others (even people considered grievous sinners), and who strove to be the most humane person they themselves could be.

And that was just the start of it. In the popular imagination, a true Christian was the peak, the acme of human moral excellence. The phrase, true Christian, even at times was applied to people who were not Christians, as in, "He's Jewish, but he's more of a True Christian than most Christians".

Of course, there were people who didn't hold such a positive view of Christian morals, but they seemed to me a relatively small minority at the time. The main criticism you heard of Christians was that they didn't always live up to their ideals, not that their ideals were bad or evil.

I think it's very different today. The custom of praising someone for being a true Christian is almost unheard of now. So many people these days find that they disagree with what passes for core Christian values now -- anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights, anti-evolution, anti-climate change, pro prosperity gospel, and even willing to condone such evils as racism, sexism, sexual molestation, wealth inequality, and so forth if it is politically expedient to do so. Political power at all cost. That's what Christianity -- in moral terms -- has come to mean for so many people today.

I think Evangelicals -- the folks who by all accounts led this change -- were deeply unwise to do so. I suspect that the coming years will see interest in their brand of Christianity wane with most morally healthy people while it yet increases with the morally insane.

But what do you think?

For further reading: The Death of Christianity in the US. An angry, but I think fairly accurate condemnation of today's Evangelical values.

I think that today's Evangelical movement is pretty much in line with its history:

But it does seem self-evident that, in the main, white evangelicals—particularly those in the South—were deeply invested in efforts to either uphold Jim Crow or to try to slow down its dismantling. While a previous generation of historians suggested this was symptomatic of “cultural captivity,” I’m not so sure. In fact, in many cases, it seems that evangelical theology—or at least distorted models of it—were part of the reason segregationist beliefs and structures took shape the way they did. The unfortunate reality isn’t that evangelical theology in the South was muted when it came to racial justice, it’s that it was actively used to undermine justice and to perpetuate a demonic system. And that’s the cruelest historical irony of it all: those who loved the “old rugged cross” were often also those who torched crosses in protest of desegregation.

A Conversation with Four Historians on the Response of White Evangelicals to the Civil Rights Movement

I would suggest that is as much to do with a segment of society's changing view of Christian morality as with any change in Christianity itself. You used to be able to believe that what goes on in a bedroom isn't really your business but you don't think society should give its imprimatur to a homosexual relationship without being called a horrible nazi monster bigot. Now that is an evil, regressive, stuck in the bronze age moral understanding.

Here's the thing about that:

- People started listening to the LGBT community. When a group is marginalized and voiceless, their outcries when they're disparaged tend not to get noticed.

- Everyone has priorities. When the pressing issue is not getting murdered, that gets more attention than marriage rights.

- When the law and society overall is very repressive, a person holding a position that's only mildly oppressive isn't the factor that decides anyone's rights. When society becomes not repressive, that mildly repressive person becomes the vanguard of the repression. That vanguard always took the brunt of the opposition; it's just that others used to be in the vanguard.

 

[metis]

The true evangelicals have not waivered from their commitment. They honestly believe in what they are doing. And they are very moral in the Christian sense.

Not if they still support what Trump has been saying and doing, which still is over 60% of all Evangelicals here according to a poll I saw several months ago.

I can understand why many who really don't follow politics that closely could have voted for Trump, but any who continue to blindly follow him and excuse his words and actions have basically "sold their soul", imo. And isn't it "interesting" that they didn't vote for a woman who attends church services regularly (United Methodist) and voted for a man who almost never goes to services and who claimed during the campaign that he doesn't need God's forgiveness.

 

[osgart]

Not if they still support what Trump has been saying and doing, which still is over 60% of all Evangelicals here according to a poll I saw several months ago.

I can understand why many who really don't follow politics that closely could have voted for Trump, but any who continue to blindly follow him and excuse his words and actions have basically "sold their soul", imo. And isn't it "interesting" that they didn't vote for a woman who attends church services regularly (United Methodist) and voted for a man who almost never goes to services and who claimed during the campaign that he doesn't need God's forgiveness.

I'm not even Christian, and I don't support any of the political players on any side.

The evangelicals I'm talking about don't put faith in political leaders. I'm not even saying that Christianity is truly moral, but it has it's own moral code.

I am aware of power mongering false evangelicals with no moral code of conduct. But I don't consider them true Christians.

All these conflicting moralities. It gets very subjective. It's all shifting sand serving not the greater good.

 

[Jose Fly]

I don't see evangelicalism doing much of anything except making noise. It's their métier. According to the graphic here, it comprises only about a quarter of all faiths and like all the categories except for one, is declining in membership percentage, although rather insignificantly.

​

​

This has fascinated me recently. If the Catholics and Mainline Protestants are the "normal" Christians, and Evangelicals are the angry, bigoted, anti-science, white nationalists of the faith, then if the trends depicted in this chart continue, it won't be too long before Christianity in the US is primarily represented by these Evangelicals. IOW, the Christian community in the US will be mostly "the crazies", and I would think that would only further the faith's overall decline.

So will there be a point in which Christianity is a fringe belief mostly adhered to by bitter, angry, older whites?

 

[metis]

The evangelicals I'm talking about don't put faith in political leaders

Most of the ones I have been dealing with tend to be quite political with most of them being at least somewhat right of center.

BTW, I came from one of those churches way back when.

I am aware of power mongering false evangelicals with no moral code of conduct. But I don't consider them true Christians.

I don't get into the who are the "true Christians", but I do get into whether some are going in the direction of what Jesus appears to have taught or in the opposite direction.

 

[metis]

So will there be a point in which Christianity is a fringe belief mostly adhered to by bitter, angry, older whites?

Surveys are indicating that the millennials are far more religiously and politically liberal and also less apt to be affiliated with any particular church. If they were the only ones voting and the presidential election were happening this year, Trump wouldn't even make it in as dog-catcher.

 

[Skwim]

​

This has fascinated me recently. If the Catholics and Mainline Protestants are the "normal" Christians, and Evangelicals are the angry, bigoted, anti-science, white nationalists of the faith, then if the trends depicted in this chart continue, it won't be too long before Christianity in the US is primarily represented by these Evangelicals. IOW, the Christian community in the US will be mostly "the crazies", and I would think that would only further the faith's overall decline.

So will there be a point in which Christianity is a fringe belief mostly adhered to by bitter, angry, older whites?

If by "bitter, angry, older whites" you mean the unaffiliated, then YUP! If one goes strictly by the charts, it's the Unaffiliated who will indeed reign.

If the trend among the Unaffiliated continues as is, In 25 years (2043)

The Unaffiliated will account for 46.6% of the faithful.
The Evangelicals will likely slip to 19.4%
The Catholics will likely slip to 15.6%
The Mainline Protestants will likely slip to 11.2%
The Non-Christians will likely rise to 7.3%

.​

 

[Kenny]

I've said for years that Western Christianity is a farce.
What @Sunstone has alluded to is only part of the problem.

This is a faith based on a character who specifically preached against the prevalent values that seem to arise in an affluent, capitalistic society. Instead of applying those teachings and truly living as someone "not of this world", Christians in Western society have embraced their baser selves and given into worshiping their State in place of their Lord. They worship Caesar, to paraphrase their own book. And they have become quite adept at making excuses for why such behavior is not only acceptable, but it's something that should be emulated...

I'm an Atheist and I'm certainly not claiming that Biblical values are any kind of objective standard for morality or anything. But to claim faith in something, and then to actively work against your self-affirmed value system is disgusting to me. It's akin to a Child Protective Services advocate who molests children, or a Geologist who practices Steady State resource "management". A Christian who worships Caesar is a Fireman who makes a living as an arsonist.

I just love it when atheists tell me what I'm like...

I assume you are just like Castro, Mao and Stalin? Kill them all?

 

[socharlie]

Colorado Springs, where I live, is the home of over 300 Christian non-profit "ministries", including Focus on the Family. Focus on the Family is a large Evangelical organization founded by James Dobson that, among other things, seeks to influence politics in the US on all levels. It is especially notorious for its attacks on the rights of LGBT folks, but its activism doesn't stop there. It pushes a broad social and political agenda.

Some long time ago, I came across a chilling quote of Dobson's in the local newspaper. It was from around the time when he founded Focus on the Family. I can no longer recall the exact words he used but I believe this is an accurate paraphrase:

"People have got it wrong. They think Christian morals are about old ladies being nice, sweet, treating everyone fairly. But that's only the velvet glove of Christianity. We are going to show people the iron fist. We are going to change how people view Christianity. We are going to make sinners fear us."​

Now, I don't suppose everyone who is younger than about 40 these days is fully aware of how Christianity and Christian morals were most often thought of by most people back before James Dobson and other Evangelical leaders changed the public perception of the religion. However, I've heard more than one person my own age or older speak with regret about the "old days".

You see, back in the old days, the most popular view was that Christians -- if and when they lived up to their ideals -- had exemplary morals. In fact, it was not uncommon to think and speak of "true Christians" as the most moral people in any given community -- even the most moral people possible.

To call someone a "True Christian" in most communities was to say in effect that they treated everyone, regardless of their background (such as race, social and economic class, religion, etc) with fairness, dignity, and respect. It was to say that they were a gentle person who rigorously avoided unnecessarily hurting anyone, who readily forgave any slights against themselves, who ever sought to see the best in others (even people considered grievous sinners), and who strove to be the most humane person they themselves could be.

And that was just the start of it. In the popular imagination, a true Christian was the peak, the acme of human moral excellence. The phrase, true Christian, even at times was applied to people who were not Christians, as in, "He's Jewish, but he's more of a True Christian than most Christians".

Of course, there were people who didn't hold such a positive view of Christian morals, but they seemed to me a relatively small minority at the time. The main criticism you heard of Christians was that they didn't always live up to their ideals, not that their ideals were bad or evil.

I think it's very different today. The custom of praising someone for being a true Christian is almost unheard of now. So many people these days find that they disagree with what passes for core Christian values now -- anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights, anti-evolution, anti-climate change, pro prosperity gospel, and even willing to condone such evils as racism, sexism, sexual molestation, wealth inequality, and so forth if it is politically expedient to do so. Political power at all cost. That's what Christianity -- in moral terms -- has come to mean for so many people today.

I think Evangelicals -- the folks who by all accounts led this change -- were deeply unwise to do so. I suspect that the coming years will see interest in their brand of Christianity wane with most morally healthy people while it yet increases with the morally insane.

But what do you think?

For further reading: The Death of Christianity in the US. An angry, but I think fairly accurate condemnation of today's Evangelical values.

organized Christianity was always political, it failed Christ's teachings , there are/were plenty of real good individual Christians that always were overridden by organization .

 

[jonathan180iq]

I just love it when atheists tell me what I'm like...

I assume you are just like Castro, Mao and Stalin? Kill them all?

Did I mention you by name or quote you directly?