Have You Noticed This?

[PureX]

My experience was that a lack of faith drove me to 'rock bottom'. At which time I was forced to surrender to a faith I didn't have. All I could do is "act as if" and hope it worked.

Eventually I learned that's what faith is ... acting on hope in the face of the unknown. And I discovered that it works. Not slways, but often. By acting on what I hope to be so I can help to make it so.

Now I have faith, hope, and gratitude, and my life is mostly joyous. No more 'bottoms'.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Here is the claim:

Faith is at its highest when you have hit a rock bottom, when you have decided to make a stand during a trying time in your life. Is this true for you?

Here is another claim:

It’s when we have access to that part of us with high faith, during adversity and struggle, that we level up the most. Is this true for you?

If these two claims are true for you, has the benefit of leveling up outweighed the pain that was a catalyst for it?

I find the opposite. I see things in terms of something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When I'm at my lowest and basic survival is in question, I'm just focused on basic survival.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I find the opposite. I see things in terms of something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When I'm at my lowest and basic survival is in question, I'm just focused on basic survival.

Yeah, but physical needs are not the same as mental ones.

 

[Koldo]

Here is the claim:

Faith is at its highest when you have hit a rock bottom, when you have decided to make a stand during a trying time in your life. Is this true for you?

Here is another claim:

It’s when we have access to that part of us with high faith, during adversity and struggle, that we level up the most. Is this true for you?

If these two claims are true for you, has the benefit of leveling up outweighed the pain that was a catalyst for it?

What does 'leveling up' mean in practice here?
A certain individual has a certain set of attributes X and then after a certain experience he now has set Y. How would you figure out if Y > X?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What does 'leveling up' mean in practice here?
A certain individual has a certain set of attributes X and then after a certain experience he now has set Y. How would you figure out if Y > X?

If they to you are better, then they are better to you, because that is how it works. There is no strong objective evidence for that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It’s when we have access to that part of us with high faith, during adversity and struggle, that we level up the most. Is this true for you?

No. One has to fight one's own battles alone. That can be done without any false belief.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

My experience was that a lack of faith drove me to 'rock bottom'. At which time I was forced to surrender to a faith I didn't have. All I could do is "act as if" and hope it worked.

Eventually I learned that's what faith is ... acting on hope in the face of the unknown. And I discovered that it works. Not slways, but often. By acting on what I hope to be so I can help to make it so.

Now I have faith, hope, and gratitude, and my life is mostly joyous. No more 'bottoms'.

Speaking for myself, my reflections on my rock bottom experiences and faith gave me the same positive conclusion as you and RestlessSoul. I went further, though, in that I confronted myself with the idea that if it is a pattern that being broken down at rock bottom and accessing high faith leads to a leveling up, then wouldn’t it continue to do so?

I used this truth to intentionally and consciously undermine my life in order to cultivate more rock bottoms. I denied myself of coping mechanisms and pain avoidance responses to unwanted emotions. I jumped on opportunities to judge and condemn myself. I fasted from the world and laid waste to belief systems in case they were constructed to stabilize me. So on and so on.

This is how I got to the end of the Grand Narrative as I call it. From my perspective, it is the only way to navigate to the end of the spiritual development path toward paradise.

 

[PureX]

Speaking for myself, my reflections on my rock bottom experiences and faith gave me the same positive conclusion as you and RestlessSoul. I went further, though, in that I confronted myself with the idea that if it is a pattern that being broken down at rock bottom and accessing high faith leads to a leveling up, then wouldn’t it continue to do so?

I used this truth to intentionally and consciously undermine my life in order to cultivate more rock bottoms. I denied myself of coping mechanisms and pain avoidance responses to unwanted emotions. I jumped on opportunities to judge and condemn myself. I fasted from the world and laid waste to belief systems in case they were constructed to stabilize me. So on and so on.

This is how I got to the end of the Grand Narrative as I call it. From my perspective, it is the only way to navigate to the end of the spiritual development path toward paradise.

Interesting.

There was a time, before really hitting my bottom, when I actually liked the constant failure and the self-disgust and the hopelessness. I liked seeing the revulsion and disgust in the eyes of other people when they looked at me. I felt freed by it.Their revulsion was a kind of force field keeping them away. Their negative judgment only served to puff up my ego. I had become that perverted in mind and spirit.

But when the real bottom happened all that BS was exposed for exactly what it was, and I caught a moment of clarity. I understood who I had become. And who I would remain without some sort of miracle. And so I was finally ready for one.

I wasn't looking to go to heaven. I was just trying to get out of hell.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Is faith supposed to guarantee something? That something miraculous occurs?

Only one thing that is true, is the only direction that one must go is always foreword regardless weither faith is a thing for someone or not.

Romanticism over the term faith really dosent "game the system" so to speak in whatever situation is going on at the time. There's nothing special about it. It's always going to be even keel with or without such notions.

I would agree. The important thing is to keep moving forward. Faith seems to help with that, but so long as you're able to keep going when experiencing doubt.

 

[Heyo]

Here is the claim:

Faith is at its highest when you have hit a rock bottom, when you have decided to make a stand during a trying time in your life. Is this true for you?

I'd formulate it different but basically you are right. We see that also in most statistics. People in bad situations are more religious. (Or the more religious are in a bad situation.) That's why priests like suffering and misery. It brings people to church. Desperate situations also shut down rational thinking. When you are in "survival mode", there is no time or resource for contemplation. Every desperate action is validated.
That's also why religion tends to lead to "learned helplessness". (See Learned Helplessness and Religion) Rational people with the confidence that almost all situations can be managed with rationality, will not fall for religion, even in dire situations.

Here is another claim:

It’s when we have access to that part of us with high faith, during adversity and struggle, that we level up the most. Is this true for you?

If these two claims are true for you, has the benefit of leveling up outweighed the pain that was a catalyst for it?

What do you mean by "level up"?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I wasn't looking to go to heaven. I was just trying to get out of hell.

The drive to get out of hell seems to be the strongest motivator, so I incrementally turned my daily life into hell so that I would go down through the rock bottom. Then, repeated this. The idea is if you perceive your daily life to be a comparable hell to the rock bottom hell, then you will strive for the new life on the other side of the rock bottom, as long as you believe it’s there waiting for you.

All of my posts on this forum are in service to this idea. Still, as it’s been said, there is a big difference between knowing the path and walking the path. I fully realize that it’s not as simple as I have described it in this thread.

 

[PureX]

The drive to get out of hell seems to be the strongest motivator, so I incrementally turned my daily life into hell so that I would go down through the rock bottom. Then, repeated this. The idea is if you perceive your daily life to be a comparable hell to the rock bottom hell, then you will strive for the new life on the other side of the rock bottom, as long as you believe it’s there waiting for you.

All of my posts on this forum are in service to this idea. Still, as it’s been said, there is a big difference between knowing the path and walking the path. I fully realize that it’s not as simple as I have described it in this thread.

I see no point to the repition. It's just a strange way of standing still while wallowing in the extremes. But you do you.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I suppose the point of faith is where you let go of all of your doubts.

Well, no. That sounds to me like something else, rather. Possibly arrogance and/or blind conviction.

Doubt is part of faith, but in such moments when a greater sense of faith is sought, you choose to trust fully in that which you believe, often because at that certain point, you need to.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[Nakosis]

Well, no. That sounds to me like something else, rather. Possibly arrogance and/or blind conviction.

Doubt is part of faith, but in such moments when a greater sense of faith is sought, you choose to trust fully in that which you believe, often because at that certain point, you need to.


Humbly,
Hermit

That's not how I define faith. Otherwise there is no difference between the concepts of faith and trust.
Trust allows doubt, faith does not.
However if you want to use them interchangeably I'll be happy to understand your use of the word faith means trust.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

That's not how I define faith. Otherwise there is no difference between the concepts of faith and trust.
Trust allows doubt, faith does not.
However if you want to use them interchangeably I'll be happy to understand your use of the word faith means

I don’t agree with you in that faith does not allow for doubt.

If there is no room for doubt, it’s not a matter of faith but of conviction. And conviction includes neither trust or faith, so whether those terms are interchangeable or not, becomes irrelevant in context of what we are speaking of.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[Nakosis]

I don’t agree with you in that faith does not allow for doubt.

If there is no room for doubt, it’s not a matter of faith but of conviction. And conviction includes neither trust or faith, so whether those terms are interchangeable or not, becomes irrelevant in context of what we are speaking of.


Humbly,
Hermit

ok, yes here is the definition I'm familiar with. “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”
If you use a different definition that's fine. The with definition I use, faith is a matter of conviction.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I see no point to the repition. It's just a strange way of standing still while wallowing in the extremes. But you do you.

Is there not anyone else who desires to fully come into being and have eternal life? Smh.

 

[osgart]

Here is the claim:

Faith is at its highest when you have hit a rock bottom, when you have decided to make a stand during a trying time in your life. Is this true for you?

Here is another claim:

It’s when we have access to that part of us with high faith, during adversity and struggle, that we level up the most. Is this true for you?

If these two claims are true for you, has the benefit of leveling up outweighed the pain that was a catalyst for it?

Either you are standing on knowledge or standing on faith, or both. Faith in something or someone be it the scientific method, or your spouse is unavoidable.

There's the faith that things will work out or that it can be done. Faith is necessary and unavoidable because we can't stand on the foundations of complete knowledge. So at rock bottom one must call upon a rational faith to continue on or fall further into the land of doubting absolutely everything. Falling further then that is to say nothing can be done. Further then that is quitting.

For me I've often felt that nothing can be done, and felt trapped by the cards life has dealt me. I've had false faiths, and truer faiths to recognize exactly where I am, and who I am in life. It's better to face the pain for what it truly is by recognizing honestly what it is, and then go for the courage to have a true faith that gives you reachable goals. Knowledge trumps faith, but I think it takes faith to get to knowledge.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

So at rock bottom one must call upon a rational faith to continue on or fall further into the land of doubting absolutely everything. Falling further then that is to say nothing can be done. Further then that is quitting.

In one hand you have to hold onto persistence but in the other hand is the acceptance of the failure point and utter defeat. Both are necessary to stay in the right story. We have to be in the tension of that contradiction or we will settle for a lesser story that won’t be able to fulfill us.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

In one hand you have to hold onto persistence but in the other hand is the acceptance of the failure point and utter defeat. Both are necessary to stay in the right story. We have to be in the tension of that contradiction or we will settle for a lesser story that won’t be able to fulfill us.

As this tension builds and builds, and as long as you stay in this story — which is the highest faith story — then eventually and inevitably you will humble yourself and look up. I said eventually and inevitably because there is no free will in that moment - a lower will “levels up” by unifying with a higher will.