Healthcare is a privilege or a right?

[lilJimmy]

As a society we need to have unity. Does leaving healthcare coverage in private hand count as unity?
I watched my mother-in-law die of cancer for two years while she could not afford to be in a private club of proper health coverage. It was a nightmare to deal with!
The (www)americanchristiansociety(com) says it is wrong to leave healthcare in private hands.
The strength of a society can be measured by how it treats its weakest members.
So I guess my question is: Should healthcare coverage be a society thing or private hands?
Cheers!

 

[tumbleweed41]

No modern society in the 21st Century can be called civilized that withholds available health-care from its citizens.

 

[Sunstone]

No modern society in the 21st Century can be called civilized that withholds available health-care from its citizens.

Spot on.

 

[Sunstone]

[The strength of a society can be measured by how it treats its weakest members.

I agree.

 

[Sleekstar]

liljimmy, Your subject title is making a different argument from the one you're making in your post. Whether health care is a "right" or not is beside the point. I can show you, through an analysis of the constitution, why the only "right" to healthcare is the right to be free from government interference of you trying to get healthcare.

However, like I said, that's beside the point. It's just that there are certain things which a modern, advanced society should see as the fruits of membership in said society. That goes to what tumbleweed41 said. We don't have a "right" to paved roads, running water, sewage systems or street lights. 125 years ago, the right wingers of today would've been fighting against access to those advancements as well.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So does an alcoholic have a right to a liver transplant?

Does a 90 year old man have a right to a heart transplant?

Where do we draw the line? Is unlimited health care a right?

Should education be unlimited?

How about housing?

Should society require the recipients to have any responsibility for themselves?

Should anyone who sneaks into this country have the same rights as citizens?

What about the rest of the world?

Right now, I'm thinking of the people in Haiti. Should they have to live like they do right now? They don't even have decent drinking water.

 

[ninerbuff]

The US healthcare system is a FOR PROFIT system. Till that gets resolved, then healthcare here will always be a privilege.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So does an alcoholic have a right to a liver transplant?

Does a 90 year old man have a right to a heart transplant?

Where do we draw the line? Is unlimited health care a right?

If you had a liver or heart available and the patient was healthy enough to survive the operation and get a meaningfully improved quality of life, why wouldn't you allow them their transplants?

Should education be unlimited?

How about housing?

IMO, they should be accessible to all. This doesn't necessarily mean free, but it does mean they should be affordable.

Should society require the recipients to have any responsibility for themselves?

Do you think that maintaining a basic social safety net destroys the idea of individual responsibility? I don't think it does.

Should anyone who sneaks into this country have the same rights as citizens?

Not the same... they shouldn't have the right to vote or hold office, for instance. However, this doesn't mean that these people should have no rights at all.

What about the rest of the world?

Right now, I'm thinking of the people in Haiti. Should they have to live like they do right now? They don't even have decent drinking water.

I don't think they should live the way they do. I'm just not sure of the best way to help them.

 

[tumbleweed41]

So does an alcoholic have a right to a liver transplant?

No, but a responsible society should provide him with access to rehabilitation.

Does a 90 year old man have a right to a heart transplant?

No, but a responsible society should provide him with appropriate medical care in his waning years.

Where do we draw the line? Is unlimited health care a right?

No, not a right. Appropriate health care should be a responsibility of modern society.

Should education be unlimited?

Unlimited? No. But a well educated society is more productive.

How about housing?

A responsible society should provide at least minimal shelter for even the chronically unemployed.
Unless you think we should just leave them under the bridge.

Should society require the recipients to have any responsibility for themselves?

Responsibility is indeed a two way street.

Should anyone who sneaks into this country have the same rights as citizens?

Who even suggested that?

What about the rest of the world?

America is the only First World country without some sort of Universal Healthcare system.

Right now, I'm thinking of the people in Haiti. should they have to live like they do right now? They don't even have decent drinking water.

No, they shouldn't. Imagine the resources we could provide them to help them get on their feet if we were not wasting billions on wars.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you had a liver or heart available and the patient was healthy enough to survive the operation and get a meaningfully improved quality of life, why wouldn't you allow them their transplants?

What if this was an alcoholics second transplant? I'm just wondering where the line should be drawn.

IMO, they should be accessible to all. This doesn't necessarily mean free, but it does mean they should be affordable.

I'm for afordable housing. Should I join the "rents to high" party?

Do you think that maintaining a basic social safety net destroys the idea of individual responsibility? I don't think it does.

Basic social net? I'm on board. Lets define basic.

Not the same... they shouldn't have the right to vote or hold office, for instance. However, this doesn't mean that these people should have no rights at all.

No one said they should have no rights

I don't think they should live the way they do. I'm just not sure of the best way to help them.

I believe it is interesting how the world showed up after the earth quake and now they don't even have clean drinking water.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What if this was an alcoholics second transplant? I'm just wondering where the line should be drawn.

If we've got a spare liver lying around, it's better to extend his life a bit than throw it in the trash, isn't it?

The reality is that we don't have enough livers to go around, and I don't think that the alcoholic needing his second transplant should be prioritized higher than someone who stands a good chance of recovery and improvement in his quality of life. But this is a separate question to whether we should give him a liver if one is available.

I'm for afordable housing. Should I join the "rents to high party?

Sure, if you want. Just remember that "affordable housing" doesn't necessarily mean "affordable housing in my favourite trendy neighbourhood".

Basic social net? I'm on board. Lets define basic.

The necessities of life, for starters. Would setting up a system so that every person had food, clean water and shelter imply that personal responsibility was dead?

No one said they should have no rights

So what were you getting at, then? I never heard of anyone who's suggested that illegal immigrants should have the same rights as citizens.

I believe it is interesting how the world showed up after the earth quake and now they don't even have clean drinking water.

They should.

 

[Reverend Rick]

They should.

Think about this. Planes where circling Hati and had no where to land just a few months ago. I guess people got their picture of themselves helping folks out and then got back on their planes and went home.

When was the last time you heard Obama speak about Hati?

I guess he did not see the news about their drinking water plight. I hope this is the case. You don't think he is ignoring them do you?

How hard could it be to drill some friggin wells?

 

[tumbleweed41]

When I hear these arguments that compare equal access to healthcare regardless of financial status to getting a free house, or getting free cars, and lamenting on "where do we draw the line", I am reminded of the slippery slope arguments against Gay marriage.
You know, "What if a man wants to marry his cat? Or his vacuum cleaner? What about pedophiles? Where do we draw the line?"

Simple common sense can be used to provide universal healthcare to American citizens without the need to bring up unrelated concerns.

 

[tomato1236]

I would hope that if I was in a coma with a disease that cost $100,000 to fix, that I would not receive that surgery at the expense of others. If I could afford the service, including my insurance, then great, and if I could not afford it, I would expect not to receive the service.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Think about this. Planes where circling Hati and had no where to land just a few months ago. I guess people got their picture of themselves helping folks out and then got back on their planes and went home.

Some, probably. However, many of the people who were there before the earthquake are still there.

When was the last time you heard Obama speak about Hati?

Not lately.

I guess he did not see the news about their drinking water plight. I hope this is the case. You don't think he is ignoring them do you?

How hard could it be to drill some friggin wells?

Actually, Engineers Without Borders has been active in Haiti with water purification and sanitation projects.

The water purification projects are really neat: they've developed a biosand filter that costs about $15, is made from local materials, filters 5 gallons of water a day, and doesn't need any sort of chemicals ever. Give one to a village or a school, and they can produce enough safe drinking water for everyone there. From what I hear, they're pushing hard to get these constructed and rolled out all over Haiti, as well as many other places worldwide.

 

[tumbleweed41]

When was the last time you heard Obama speak about Hati?

I guess he did not see the news about their drinking water plight. I hope this is the case. You don't think he is ignoring them do you?

How hard could it be to drill some friggin wells?

Agreed.
Haiti Water Project

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No modern society in the 21st Century can be called civilized that withholds available health-care from its citizens.

agreed...

 

[tumbleweed41]

I would hope that if I was in a coma with a disease that cost $100,000 to fix, that I would not receive that surgery at the expense of others. If I could afford the service, including my insurance, then great, and if I could not afford it, I would expect not to receive the service.

Do you feel the same about a ten year old girl with failing kidneys and no means to pay for treatment?

 

[Kathryn]

My no good, lazy, deadbeat, ******* cousin who refuses to hold a job or be a responsible person, just had a health crisis that meant that he had to spend two weeks in the hospital, numerous MRIs, tests, treatments, etc.

He doesn't have a drop of health insurance. He has not filed a tax return in YEARS. He was fully treated, including hospitalization for over a week.

When the hospital financial counseling department reviewed his situation, they basically wiped out all of whatever it was he owed. He is still receiving treatment.

This is in Arkansas - not exactly a bastion of progression and liberal policies.

 

[tumbleweed41]

My no good, lazy, deadbeat, ******* cousin who refuses to hold a job or be a responsible person, just had a health crisis that meant that he had to spend two weeks in the hospital, numerous MRIs, tests, treatments, etc.

He doesn't have a drop of health insurance. He has not filed a tax return in YEARS. He was fully treated, including hospitalization for over a week.

When the hospital financial counseling department reviewed his situation, they basically wiped out all of whatever it was he owed. He is still receiving treatment.

This is in Arkansas - not exactly a bastion of progression and liberal policies.

It would have been much cheaper on the state if he had not had to wait for the crisis to get care.