Heaven = Life as a Ghost

[RamaRaksha]

One of the views of Heaven is that it is nothing but life as a Ghost
What is Heaven anyway? A life where there is no pain or suffering, easy lazy life, nothing to do - no one mentions any work being done in Heaven
Amazingly, no one even asks
The problem is obvious - what work would an al-mighty being that created this huge universe, need to get done & that too need our help?
We end up with billions in a lazy, idle, useless and pointless existence for eternity and that is why supporters do not ask
But frighteningly neither do the media, those who "study" religions, philosophers and even Atheists!
And there is this eternal "life" - well, now we can change it to eternal existence, which is more appropriate
.
And now we come to Occam's razor - why would God create a charity Retirement Home in the sky, feeding, keeping people in comfort when all he has to do is change THEM? As Ghosts they are caught between life and death - neither dead nor alive
But they get the "life" they chose of their own free will - no more pain or suffering, nothing to do, easy lazy "life" and yes for eternity!
One day humanity will either perish or leave this planet for greener pastures
One day the Sun will become huge and burn the earth to a toast, if before that some space rock doesn't shatter the earth first
The earth will be gone and then the Sun will be gone as well, and then the Universe will die also
But these Ghosts will still remain where the earth once stood - locked in the past - still "living" as they once used to

 

[George-ananda]

Your discussion comes from a dualist (God and creation are two) perspective. I come at the question from a nondualist (God and creation are not two) perspective. So, through life, afterlife and reincarnation we are experiencing the upliftment of going from ego-based finite existence to Oneness in infinite consciousness.

So, I don't see a plateaued eternity like you are describing.

 

[osgart]

One of the views of Heaven is that it is nothing but life as a Ghost
What is Heaven anyway? A life where there is no pain or suffering, easy lazy life, nothing to do - no one mentions any work being done in Heaven
Amazingly, no one even asks
The problem is obvious - what work would an al-mighty being that created this huge universe, need to get done & that too need our help?
We end up with billions in a lazy, idle, useless and pointless existence for eternity and that is why supporters do not ask
But frighteningly neither do the media, those who "study" religions, philosophers and even Atheists!
And there is this eternal "life" - well, now we can change it to eternal existence, which is more appropriate
.
And now we come to Occam's razor - why would God create a charity Retirement Home in the sky, feeding, keeping people in comfort when all he has to do is change THEM? As Ghosts they are caught between life and death - neither dead nor alive
But they get the "life" they chose of their own free will - no more pain or suffering, nothing to do, easy lazy "life" and yes for eternity!
One day humanity will either perish or leave this planet for greener pastures
One day the Sun will become huge and burn the earth to a toast, if before that some space rock doesn't shatter the earth first
The earth will be gone and then the Sun will be gone as well, and then the Universe will die also
But these Ghosts will still remain where the earth once stood - locked in the past - still "living" as they once used to

I like to think of heaven as being self sufficient with endless motivation to do things and endless things to do. Perhaps a glorious body that has no needs of hunger and pain yet feels very deeply about things. I'm quite sure most believers in heaven think this way, and not the version where they sit on a lazy river and fish all day.

There are shallow versions of heaven but then again there are better versions out there.

The best version of heaven is one without hatred nor malice, nor immorality and vices of any kind. Pride and arrogance would not exist there because people would be naturally inclined to help each other no matter what.

Heaven is every good thing one can possibly imagine, none of what's bad. And then going beyond what anyone can imagine.

 

[RamaRaksha]

I like to think of heaven as being self sufficient with endless motivation to do things and endless things to do. Perhaps a glorious body that has no needs of hunger and pain yet feels very deeply about things. I'm quite sure most believers in heaven think this way, and not the version where they sit on a lazy river and fish all day.

There are shallow versions of heaven but then again there are better versions out there.

The best version of heaven is one without hatred nor malice, nor immorality and vices of any kind. Pride and arrogance would not exist there because people would be naturally inclined to help each other no matter what.

Heaven is every good thing one can possibly imagine, none of what's bad. And then going beyond what anyone can imagine.

Seems like running away from real life, somehow down here we are greedy, condemn others, but up there suddenly we are super nice? - the ones who hope to get into heaven have a history of mass murder of unbelievers, even today go around spewing hate at unbelievers - telling them they are going to hell unless they convert
In Islamic countries like Pakistan - they can convert you, even using violence, but the reverse is not allowed and blasphemy laws are used liberally to kill innocent people
A syrupy, childlike version of the world? A cartoon world where everyone is super nice and everything is good & people go around solving "problems" like searching for a lost book?
.
"do things and endless things to do" Ah but the devil is in the details, right? Pray tell me - what things will one be doing? Jobs? Is there unemployment in Heaven? People living in the streets, begging? Disease? Doctors healing the sick? What?
And why would God need to get these Jobs done? Details please
You got by because no one asks - no one pins you guys down for details in Heaven
Where do you live? Rent, buy? What are the rents like? What is the interest rate charged to buy a house? A car?
Or these "jobs" are just something to do to occupy our time? not really needed to be done?
A pass the baton to B, B to C and C back to A - those kind of occupations?
So God is like a benevolent Sugar Daddy - is happy to cater to us while we live the good life sponging off him?
And this is his Grand plan?
.
Time and again I have asked for Details and time and again people have run away from answering
But it won't work - one can't live in a fantasy
One can live only in the Real world - Reincarnation

 

[RamaRaksha]

Your discussion comes from a dualist (God and creation are two) perspective. I come at the question from a nondualist (God and creation are not two) perspective. So, through life, afterlife and reincarnation we are experiencing the upliftment of going from ego-based finite existence to Oneness in infinite consciousness.

So, I don't see a plateaued eternity like you are describing.

That is another way of saying you become part of the universe - dust to dust - there is no YOU anymore - you die, Hindus burn their dead, others put them under the ground, over time the body is eaten or decays & all that becomes part of the earth or this universe
I am sorry but I don't see Death being some sort of Gateway to a magic land - whether it is heaven or this "infinite consciousness"
Honestly, i prefer this finite existence - this life
I would love to live a 100 years from now - how much progress we would have made - have we colonized Mars?
Have aliens come forward? I am sure we would have flying cars by then, most diseases would be eradicated, poverty non-existent
It would be a wonderful time to live in 100 or 200 years from now
Imagine how life has changed from 1920's to today and it will change much faster as we move forward
I want to live in the future, help build that future

 

[osgart]

Seems like running away from real life, somehow down here we are greedy, condemn others, but up there suddenly we are super nice? - the ones who hope to get into heaven have a history of mass murder of unbelievers, even today go around spewing hate at unbelievers - telling them they are going to hell unless they convert
In Islamic countries like Pakistan - they can convert you, even using violence, but the reverse is not allowed and blasphemy laws are used liberally to kill innocent people
A syrupy, childlike version of the world? A cartoon world where everyone is super nice and everything is good & people go around solving "problems" like searching for a lost book?
.
"do things and endless things to do" Ah but the devil is in the details, right? Pray tell me - what things will one be doing? Jobs? Is there unemployment in Heaven? People living in the streets, begging? Disease? Doctors healing the sick? What?
And why would God need to get these Jobs done? Details please
You got by because no one asks - no one pins you guys down for details in Heaven
Where do you live? Rent, buy? What are the rents like? What is the interest rate charged to buy a house? A car?
Or these "jobs" are just something to do to occupy our time? not really needed to be done?
A pass the baton to B, B to C and C back to A - those kind of occupations?
So God is like a benevolent Sugar Daddy - is happy to cater to us while we live the good life sponging off him?
And this is his Grand plan?
.
Time and again I have asked for Details and time and again people have run away from answering
But it won't work - one can't live in a fantasy
One can live only in the Real world - Reincarnation

I really don't like the Christian, Islam ideas of heaven. They are pretty shallow. I am atheist, but I'm open to the exercise of religion hypothetically.

My conception of heaven is that it would be a place of innocence and trust, charity and benevolence. There'd be no need of distrust, money, no sickness. I'm using my imagination as a thought experiment, and a fantasy respite.

If everyone had pure, innocent character we would all be helping one another to be self sufficient, and to be the best we can be. Since we live in this human world of desperate survival, and living with strangers that could be harmful characters, then it becomes necessary to struggle, and have institutions, and laws enforced to protect against harms and evils. Evil is the poison that ruins everything a civilization hopes to be.

I know utopia doesn't exist. But having ideal aspirations, and a healthy vision of what life could be without evil, I think is a step closer to making things better in this world. My standard of a healthy society is one that doesn't complain about charity, and benevolence, but recognizes that they are important, integral character traits that makes life better for the most possible amount of people.

Heaven to me is a thought experiment about ideals that people have in their minds about what the best life is really all about. Reality is pretty far away from the ideals I have in my heart and mind. Reality is that most people live desperate, hard lives in the grind of everyday survival, and must contend with nature, habitat, and many ignorances and evils.

In many ways people cling to a someday afterlife of what they consider to be heaven because the world is always in desperate need, and their lives are completely miserable without their hope in it.

My thoughts experiment about heaven is an attempt to see what is truly worthy, vs. what is absolutely harmful and destructive.

 

[George-ananda]

That is another way of saying you become part of the universe - dust to dust - there is no YOU anymore - you die, Hindus burn their dead, others put them under the ground, over time the body is eaten or decays & all that becomes part of the earth or this universe
I am sorry but I don't see Death being some sort of Gateway to a magic land - whether it is heaven or this "infinite consciousness"
Honestly, i prefer this finite existence - this life
I would love to live a 100 years from now - how much progress we would have made - have we colonized Mars?
Have aliens come forward? I am sure we would have flying cars by then, most diseases would be eradicated, poverty non-existent
It would be a wonderful time to live in 100 or 200 years from now
Imagine how life has changed from 1920's to today and it will change much faster as we move forward
I want to live in the future, help build that future

Well I believe the afterlife and reincarnation evidence tell us of a rich afterlife and reincarnation. The old physical remains won’t matter to the astral and soul bodies that continue on.

And then eventually we will realize our Oneness as Brahman. It’s all good.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Well I believe the afterlife and reincarnation evidence tell us of a rich afterlife and reincarnation. The old physical remains won’t matter to the astral and soul bodies that continue on.

And then eventually we will realize our Oneness as Brahman. It’s all good.

I am sorry I don't see any evidence for any astral or soul bodies - they make no sense - just ghost like bodies floating about the universe?
For what purpose? Just so we can be happy that death is not the end?
ALL Life must have a purpose - that is why the concept of Heaven - Billions of people just laying about doing nothing - makes zero sense
Only Reincarnation - REAL LIFE - makes sense
Here we have a purpose, we give meaning to our lives

 

[RamaRaksha]

I really don't like the Christian, Islam ideas of heaven. They are pretty shallow. I am atheist, but I'm open to the exercise of religion hypothetically.

My conception of heaven is that it would be a place of innocence and trust, charity and benevolence. There'd be no need of distrust, money, no sickness. I'm using my imagination as a thought experiment, and a fantasy respite.

If everyone had pure, innocent character we would all be helping one another to be self sufficient, and to be the best we can be. Since we live in this human world of desperate survival, and living with strangers that could be harmful characters, then it becomes necessary to struggle, and have institutions, and laws enforced to protect against harms and evils. Evil is the poison that ruins everything a civilization hopes to be.

I know utopia doesn't exist. But having ideal aspirations, and a healthy vision of what life could be without evil, I think is a step closer to making things better in this world. My standard of a healthy society is one that doesn't complain about charity, and benevolence, but recognizes that they are important, integral character traits that makes life better for the most possible amount of people.

Heaven to me is a thought experiment about ideals that people have in their minds about what the best life is really all about. Reality is pretty far away from the ideals I have in my heart and mind. Reality is that most people live desperate, hard lives in the grind of everyday survival, and must contend with nature, habitat, and many ignorances and evils.

In many ways people cling to a someday afterlife of what they consider to be heaven because the world is always in desperate need, and their lives are completely miserable without their hope in it.

My thoughts experiment about heaven is an attempt to see what is truly worthy, vs. what is absolutely harmful and destructive.

"innocence and trust, charity and benevolence" again a child like syrupy world - and death is the gateway to this nice wonderful land?
And we condemn those who want to get there & kill themselves as Cults?
For what purpose does God keep Heaven? Billions of people just sitting about doing nothing, staring at each other?
Charity & benevolence? Is there poverty in Heaven? People are hungry, they need help? In Heaven?
.
Don't get me wrong, I am just posting what Hinduism says will happen
There is only ONE world, this one - and so Heaven and Hell are right here
You want a child like world of innocence and trust - well, animals live in that world
The dog lives in a child like innocent world all its life - it wags its tail at everyone, wants to be everyone's friend
And just like a Child - its owners have to feed, protect, shelter, care for it and keep it away from the harsh world outside
They can't be allowed to run free outside, as child like, they will run away and get lost, run into traffic and might get killed!
.
That is what Hindus said that we come back as lower life forms & that concept has been much misunderstood
Many thought that it was some sort of punishment for bad deeds - it was not
It was a choice - a Free Will Choice - of their own free will many people are choosing to be reborn as lower life forms

 

[osgart]

"innocence and trust, charity and benevolence" again a child like syrupy world - and death is the gateway to this nice wonderful land?

Innocence is having no malice and living clean according to virtues.

Everyone must deal with judging whom to trust.

Charity means that a person has a giving spirit, and a helpful attitude.

Benevolence means that one has others best interests at heart.

There's nothing child like about any of that.

One of the major reasons poverty exists is that many people have a poor understanding, and bad attitude towards these words. They are qualities of character one chooses or one rejects.

Unfortunately many in humanity don't seem to want to climb the latter of morality to such glorious heights.

If guilt, greed, selfishness, and hoarding are more mature words for you then you can keep that.

I don't believe in god nor heaven, but if I did those words would be the highest standards for accepting any God or heaven.

All virtues are based on judging what is trustworthy and deserving.

If morality is nothing but avoiding consequences then that's the lowest form of morality. Immorality is one step below that.

Unfortunately reality is such that humans need criminal law to stay in line.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Well I believe the afterlife and reincarnation evidence tell us of a rich afterlife and reincarnation. The old physical remains won’t matter to the astral and soul bodies that continue on.

And then eventually we will realize our Oneness as Brahman. It’s all good.

In my experience, the afterlife is not ideal for everyone. I've learned that it can be lonely and traumatic for some spirits. Regarding reincarnation, I believe it is possible for two reasons: first, if human spirits can choose to remain earthbound, as I believe they can, then it makes sense to me that they can also choose to be reborn into a new physical life and live again. Second, I believe that the various accounts I've read about reincarnation are very compelling and have contributed to my belief that it is possible for someone to be reborn into a new life. Of course, this is simply my personal belief as a spiritualist.

 

[George-ananda]

ALL Life must have a purpose - that is why the concept of Heaven - Billions of people just laying about doing nothing - makes zero sense

I never said they lie around doing nothing. They are digesting their previous life and are active on the astral plane.

I am sorry I don't see any evidence for any astral or soul bodies - t
Only Reincarnation - REAL LIFE - makes sense

I don't understand. Without a soul how do we have reincarnation?

 

[RamaRaksha]

I never said they lie around doing nothing. They are digesting their previous life and are active on the astral plane.


I don't understand. Without a soul how do we have reincarnation?

"Digesting their previous life"??? What exactly does that mean? How long does this take? And then what do you do with it?
It is like your thinking about the grades you got in middle school - what exactly is the point?
You can't make up "work"
"are active on the astral plane" doing what exactly?
You cannot live in a fantasy
One can live only in the real world and that is this one that God made for us
I am sorry that His work is not to your liking but that does not mean you create a fantasy of your own and think you can live there
It's either life on earth or nothing
.
"Without a soul how do we have reincarnation?" There is no evidence of any such thing, it may not have anything to do with being reborn
We will be reborn if we want to
But if human life is not to one's liking then life as a lower life form may be more suited
Plenty of people dream of living it up in Heaven - they will be reborn as lower life forms such as Dogs, sheep
Dogs get the good life - free food, shelter, protection, care - no work, no worries - lay about all day, every day - Heaven!
People will get the heaven they dream of but it is right here on earth

 

[RamaRaksha]

In my experience, the afterlife is not ideal for everyone. I've learned that it can be lonely and traumatic for some spirits. Regarding reincarnation, I believe it is possible for two reasons: first, if human spirits can choose to remain earthbound, as I believe they can, then it makes sense to me that they can also choose to be reborn into a new physical life and live again. Second, I believe that the various accounts I've read about reincarnation are very compelling and have contributed to my belief that it is possible for someone to be reborn into a new life. Of course, this is simply my personal belief as a spiritualist.

This so-called Heaven, Astral plane etc may be nothing but life as a Ghost
Do Ghosts exist? Some say they have seen them - one incident I heard were Doctors, Nurses who say they saw dead Doctors traversing the halls of hospitals - going about their duties as in the old days
Caught between life and death - and since they are already dead, they will "live" for eternity stuck in the past
One day the earth will be swallowed up by the sun, then the sun will die too and the solar system will be a cold dead place
But these Ghosts might still be here - stuck where the earth once stood

 

[RamaRaksha]

Innocence is having no malice and living clean according to virtues.

Everyone must deal with judging whom to trust.

Charity means that a person has a giving spirit, and a helpful attitude.

Benevolence means that one has others best interests at heart.

There's nothing child like about any of that.

One of the major reasons poverty exists is that many people have a poor understanding, and bad attitude towards these words. They are qualities of character one chooses or one rejects.

Unfortunately many in humanity don't seem to want to climb the latter of morality to such glorious heights.

If guilt, greed, selfishness, and hoarding are more mature words for you then you can keep that.

I don't believe in god nor heaven, but if I did those words would be the highest standards for accepting any God or heaven.

All virtues are based on judging what is trustworthy and deserving.

If morality is nothing but avoiding consequences then that's the lowest form of morality. Immorality is one step below that.

Unfortunately reality is such that humans need criminal law to stay in line.

"Charity means that a person has a giving spirit, and a helpful attitude.
Benevolence means that one has others best interests at heart."
So basically nothing good is being done - people just become good people and death is the gateway to such wonderful attributes
Whereas the need for such good people is down here on earth
We need good people to go fight for Ukraine, in Israel, Russia and so many other places
There is poverty and need everywhere and billions of these good people just sit about in heaven?
And some of those in need are their OWN loved ones - but so few want to be Reincarnated
Strange - all these great people with good hearts, the need is here, but somehow no one wants to come back!
.
"I don't believe in god nor heaven, but if I did those words would be the highest standards for accepting any God or heaven"
Hold on, all these high standard people and they remain stuck in Heaven?
Shouldn't they be down here?
I am not seeing these good people in Heaven - all I am seeing are uncaring, selfish, freeloaders in an idle, lazy, useless existence in Heaven
Tell me where I am wrong
They are needed down here - but they don't want to come back
I hear of no work being done in Heaven - no one even asks!
God sees them coming and goes - "here comes another freeloader"
.
"
If morality is nothing but avoiding consequences then that's the lowest form of morality. Immorality is one step below that."
Our ideas of morality remain backward - violent
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - said Gandhiji
How about coming back and making things right?
Make amends rather than torture in Hell?

 

[osgart]

"Charity means that a person has a giving spirit, and a helpful attitude.
Benevolence means that one has others best interests at heart."
So basically nothing good is being done - people just become good people and death is the gateway to such wonderful attributes
Whereas the need for such good people is down here on earth
We need good people to go fight for Ukraine, in Israel, Russia and so many other places
There is poverty and need everywhere and billions of these good people just sit about in heaven?
And some of those in need are their OWN loved ones - but so few want to be Reincarnated
Strange - all these great people with good hearts, the need is here, but somehow no one wants to come back!
.
"I don't believe in god nor heaven, but if I did those words would be the highest standards for accepting any God or heaven"
Hold on, all these high standard people and they remain stuck in Heaven?
Shouldn't they be down here?
I am not seeing these good people in Heaven - all I am seeing are uncaring, selfish, freeloaders in an idle, lazy, useless existence in Heaven
Tell me where I am wrong
They are needed down here - but they don't want to come back
I hear of no work being done in Heaven - no one even asks!
God sees them coming and goes - "here comes another freeloader"
.
"
If morality is nothing but avoiding consequences then that's the lowest form of morality. Immorality is one step below that."
Our ideas of morality remain backward - violent
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - said Gandhiji
How about coming back and making things right?
Make amends rather than torture in Hell?

Oh I don't believe in heaven. I just communicated my idea of heaven. As for religion, heaven and hell religions don't really help anyone as far as I've seen.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Oh I don't believe in heaven. I just communicated my idea of heaven. As for religion, heaven and hell religions don't really help anyone as far as I've seen.

Then we are no longer human
Being human to me is to have faults - no one is perfect
In fact the higher the level of intelligence, the less the perfection
We can see this with Dogs - child-like - they trust everyone
they have no malice towards anyone - well, most of them anyway - just give them some food and they are your friend for life
There was this dog which came every day to the train station, even in the dead of winter to see its master coming home from work
Well, the Master passed away but the dog did not know that and every day without fail the dog would show up at the train station
Sure pureness of heart - Awww!
We had it as kids but lose it as Adults
Still chills me when a co-worker coolly told me that I was going to hell! My crime? Not sharing his beliefs!
The willingness to be Nazis - the willingness to condemn entire families, women, children even babies to hell - just as the Jews were
condemned simply because they were Jews - we too are to be condemned simply because we are not of his faith
And when people prattle on about Heaven - filled with nice and wonderful - Nazis? I gag!
.
So those people who dream of Heaven - a wonderful place full of innocence and joy - i think they are reborn as lower life forms
Dogs, Sheep - even Trees - what imperfection does a tree have?

 

[osgart]

So those people who dream of Heaven - a wonderful place full of innocence and joy - i think they are reborn as lower life forms
Dogs, Sheep - even Trees - what imperfection does a tree have?

I don't find real innocence to be doormats who won't defend themselves nor will they just sit there and take abuse with love. Innocence is dangerous if provoked to action. I see two sides to innocence love/judgment. Dogs may not be able to understand that.

Maliciousness by definition is without just cause.

Condemning people because of beliefs or lack thereof is abhorrent. No one chooses beliefs or lack thereof.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

This so-called Heaven, Astral plane etc may be nothing but life as a Ghost
Do Ghosts exist? Some say they have seen them - one incident I heard were Doctors, Nurses who say they saw dead Doctors traversing the halls of hospitals - going about their duties as in the old days
Caught between life and death - and since they are already dead, they will "live" for eternity stuck in the past
One day the earth will be swallowed up by the sun, then the sun will die too and the solar system will be a cold dead place
But these Ghosts might still be here - stuck where the earth once stood

I don't believe in heaven as described in the Bible. But I believe that there are astral planes (a spirit realm) that exist outside of space and time. Therefore, I don't believe that spirits will remain where the earth formerly stood. So to answer your question, yes, I believe that ghosts exist. If you're familiar with my previous posts on the subject, you will understand why I believe what I do. If you're not familiar with what I believe, then I'm providing links to some of my previous posts for you to read if you're interested. FYI, I've explained my personal beliefs in considerable detail in these posts, and the last three include additional posts to read. As usual, I want to mention that I don't debate about my beliefs or my experiences. Also, debate is not permitted in this forum.

Post 1: Afterlife

Post 2: What’s after death?

Post 3: What are the best and worst things about heaven?

Post 4: Life From Dirt?