Hebrews 9:27 vs Lazarus: Die only once?

[Shermana]

Did Lazarus's death not truly count? Did he go on to live forever afterwards?

Did the people raised at the end of Matthew go on to live forever?

Did the people Peter and Paul raise from the dead not die again?

Are they all just exceptions to the rule of Hebrews 9:27?

Or is there a direct clash?

 

[Pegg]

Did Lazarus's death not truly count? Did he go on to live forever afterwards?

Did the people raised at the end of Matthew go on to live forever?

Did the people Peter and Paul raise from the dead not die again?

Are they all just exceptions to the rule of Hebrews 9:27?

Or is there a direct clash?

can you rephrase your question?

did what not count???

 

[Shermana]

can you rephrase your question?

did what not count???

Lazarus died once. And then he was raised again.

So was this not his TRUE death?

 

[Pegg]

Lazarus died once. And then he was raised again.

So was this not his TRUE death?

i would think not.

The resurrections performed by Jesus and the apostles were demonstrations of Gods power and ability to restore the dead to life.

they were not lasting resurrections of eternal life as is promised for the future. And Lazarus was not resurrected to heavenly life anyway....he was restored in the flesh.

 

[Shermana]

So when it says its appointed for men to die once, it leaves wiggle room for a person to die and be resurrected a few days later?

 

[Pegg]

So when it says its appointed for men to die once, it leaves wiggle room for a person to die and be resurrected a few days later?

if God chooses to resurrect a person before the appointed time for the resurrection, then thats up to him.

I think pauls words simply mean that sinful humans will only die once....usually when a person is dead, they can't die again. And then he relates that to Jesus Christ in that he says :"28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many;

what point do you think Paul is making???

 

[Shermana]

if God chooses to resurrect a person before the appointed time for the resurrection, then thats up to him.

I think pauls words simply mean that sinful humans will only die once....usually when a person is dead, they can't die again. And then he relates that to Jesus Christ in that he says :"28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many;

what point do you think Paul is making???

I believe the author of Hebrews is merely indicating each person only dies once in the flesh before they receive the judgment as to the next phase of their afterlife.

From that judgment, they will be reborn afterwards.

A good verse to ask those who think there is no soul that lives on. How can there be a judgment if the soul does not live on?

 

[Pegg]

I believe the author of Hebrews is merely indicating each person only dies once in the flesh before they receive the judgment as to the next phase of their afterlife.

From that judgment, they will be reborn afterwards.

A good verse to ask those who think there is no soul that lives on. How can there be a judgment if the soul does not live on?

I would be asking then, why is the judgement spoken of as one specific time...

For example, people from the ancient past and people from the 1st century are said to stand together for judgement:
Matthew 12:41 Men of Nin′e·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jo′nah preached, but, look! something more than Jo′nah is here. 42 The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Sol′o·mon, but, look! something more than Sol′o·mon is here

The people of Ninevah died long before the generation of Jews in the first century to whom these words were addressed. If people receive their resurrection and judgement when they die in this life, then how is it they are all standing together at the same time???

 

[Shermana]

I would be asking then, why is the judgement spoken of as one specific time...

For example, people from the ancient past and people from the 1st century are said to stand together for judgement:
Matthew 12:41 Men of Nin′e·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jo′nah preached, but, look! something more than Jo′nah is here. 42 The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Sol′o·mon, but, look! something more than Sol′o·mon is here

The people of Ninevah died long before the generation of Jews in the first century to whom these words were addressed. If people receive their resurrection and judgement when they die in this life, then how is it they are all standing together at the same time???

"The judgment" can simply mean each and everyone's individual judgment that they experience after death.

SOME souls of the men of Nineveh may be present at the time of the deaths of that generation to condemn them.

But that's still avoiding the issue of the soul living on.

 

[Pegg]

"The judgment" can simply mean each and everyone's individual judgment that they experience after death.

SOME souls of the men of Nineveh may be present at the time of the deaths of that generation to condemn them.

But that's still avoiding the issue of the soul living on.

the soul living on is not an issue for me at all. I believe what the hebrew scriptures state...the soul dies. And when it does, it is conscious of nothing at all.

How can there be any judgement on someone who is dead and unconscious?



And look carefully at Jesus words....the men of Ninveah 'will rise up WITH this generation"....they are all being resurrected at the same time.

 

[Shermana]

the soul living on is not an issue for me at all. I believe what the hebrew scriptures state...the soul dies. And when it does, it is conscious of nothing at all.

How can there be any judgement on someone who is dead and unconscious?



And look carefully at Jesus words....the men of Ninveah 'will rise up WITH this generation"....they are all being resurrected at the same time.

And it says "Will STAND up with this generation", not "rise up" as in be raised, but they will STAND as in, they will be guests of honor to condemn them. Quite a bit different.

Young's Literal Translation
'Men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, because they reformed at the proclamation of Jonah; and lo, greater than Jonah here!

As for the Hebrew scriptures and the soul, this is not the thread for the subject, and my position is that the Hebrew scriptures are quite clear that the Soul does live on, that Samuel's soul was not some demon masquerading when called by the Witch of Endor, and the "LAnd of Shades" means there are in fact "Shades". The idea of the dead being conscious of nothing is not only from a disputable book, Ecclesiastes, and totally goes against what Jesus teaches on the topic, but could also mean they are conscious of nothing that goes on in Earth as opposed to the other world even if its regarded as authentic (in which Ecclesiastes was and is disputable, again). So this thread is not meant for a discussion on whether or not the Bible teaches the soul lives on after death, which it most clearly does and must be twisted terribly to get otherwise.

So then, you are now denying what Hebrews 9:27 says that there is judgment for every man after he dies once? Or do I misread you?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Lazarus died once. And then he was raised again.

So was this not his TRUE death?

It would seem apparent that there is more than one kind death.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

i would think not.

[1]The resurrections performed by Jesus and the apostles were demonstrations of Gods power and ability to restore the dead to life.

[2]they were not lasting resurrections of eternal life as is promised for the future. And Lazarus was not resurrected to heavenly life anyway....he was restored in the flesh.

I am not so sure that is what the scriptures say. Can you make each one of your comments based on Scriptures?
[1] and [2]

 

[Pegg]

I am not so sure that is what the scriptures say. Can you make each one of your comments based on Scriptures?
[1] and [2]

John 3:13 Jesus said: "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man"

Even of King David it is said by the Apostle Peter: “David, . . . both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. . . . David did not ascend to the heavens.” Acts 2:29, 34

So if Jesus said no one had gone to heaven, and even someone like King David had not gone into heaven, how can it be said that anyone goes to heaven when they die?. Its not a christian teaching. Christ did not believe these ideas...he taught us very clearly that 'no man has ascended into heaven'

I believe Jesus teachings over the teachings of anyone else.

 

[Shermana]

It would seem apparent that there is more than one kind death.

So if that's not the kind of death being referred to, then the argument that Hebrews 9:27 denies reincarnation is debunked, since one can die in the flesh yet not "die" in whatever death is being described before "the judgment" in that context of only living once.

 

[Shermana]

John 3:13 Jesus said: "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man"

Even of King David it is said by the Apostle Peter: “David, . . . both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. . . . David did not ascend to the heavens.” Acts 2:29, 34

So if Jesus said no one had gone to heaven, and even someone like King David had not gone into heaven, how can it be said that anyone goes to heaven when they die?. Its not a christian teaching. Christ did not believe these ideas...he taught us very clearly that 'no man has ascended into heaven'

I believe Jesus teachings over the teachings of anyone else.

And the interpretation of the teachings of Jesus are another story.

I wonder what made the NLT decide to add in "And returned"....

New Living Translation (©2007)
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

Perhaps Vincent's (and other commentaries) can help us here:

Vincent's Word Studies
And (κα&#8054

Note the simple connective particle, with nothing to indicate the logical sequence of the thought.

Hath ascended

Equivalent to hath been in. Jesus says that no one has been in heaven except the Son of man who came down out of heaven; because no man could be in heaven without having ascended thither.

Which is in heaven

Many authorities omit.

It appears the Greek is in fact implying a concept of "has been from"?

Let's see what the other studies say:
People's New Testament

3:13 And no man hath ascended, etc. This implies: (1) That he existed before he appeared on earth. (2) That heaven was his true abode. (3) That, on earth, his spirit was in communication with heaven.

So therefore, it appears that in order to believe this interpretation of Jesus, you must believe that Jesus wasn't originally in Heaven to begin with and thus had to ascend there. So how did he get there and where was he before?

The meaning is clearly that no man has been to Heaven who was already there.

13. no man hath ascended, &c.-There is something paradoxical in this language-"No one has gone up but He that came down, even He who is at once both up and down." Doubtless it was intended to startle and constrain His auditor to think that there must be mysterious elements in His Person. The old Socinians, to subvert the doctrine of the pre-existence of Christ, seized upon this passage as teaching that the man Jesus was secretly caught up to heaven to receive His instructions, and then "came down from heaven" to deliver them. But the sense manifestly is this: "The perfect knowledge of God is not obtained by any man's going up from earth to heaven to receive it-no man hath so ascended-but He whose proper habitation, in His essential and eternal nature, is heaven, hath, by taking human flesh, descended as the Son of man to disclose the Father, whom He knows by immediate gaze alike in the flesh as before He assumed it, being essentially and unchangeably 'in the bosom of the Father'" (Joh 1:18).

Thus, this does not in any way exclude people from going to Heaven.

 

[Pegg]

And the interpretation of the teachings of Jesus are another story.

I wonder what made the NLT decide to add in "And returned"....

New Living Translation (©2007)
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

how do you explain that David didnt go to heaven at all?

perhaps the translators of the NLT have a preconceived notion that people go to either heaven or hell when they die. They have not believed the hebrew scriptures which says that man 'returns to the dust' and that 'his spirit goes out, in that day his thoughts do perish'
Instead, they choose to adopt pagan false religious ideas that the soul is endless. Plato has many students and many followers.

 

[Shermana]

how do you explain that David didnt go to heaven at all?

perhaps the translators of the NLT have a preconceived notion that people go to either heaven or hell when they die. They have not believed the hebrew scriptures which says that man 'returns to the dust' and that 'his spirit goes out, in that day his thoughts do perish'
Instead, they choose to adopt pagan false religious ideas that the soul is endless. Plato has many students and many followers.

Neither David's body nor soul did ascend to Heaven, and his soul went down to Sheol, the "land of shades". Simple.

When David spoke of "The land of shades" he was most likely not being poetic. A "shade" is not some symbolic language, it was reference to actual entities they referred to as "shades".

Again, this thread is not to debate the afterlife altogether, but "Returns to the dust" only applies to the Physical body. "The spirit goes out" means "The spirit leaves him" in Hebrew, not "Is extinguished" like "A candle goes out".

So David simply didn't go to Heaven, he went to Sheol, and then likely "returned naked to the womb" in another body, like how Elijah's Spirit returned in the body of John of Baptist.

If anything it is a pagan idea that there is no soul which is endless. It's a pagan idea that the Witch of Endor really summoned a demon masquerading as Samuel, and that Israelites would be prohibited from consulting the dead when its' really just "demons in disguise".

If you're going to try to turn this into a debate on whether the Hebrew scriptures say there is an afterlife or not, you will meet heavy resistance as usual. I have explained to you on numerous occasions that to get the Hebrew scriptures to say there is no spirits requires extreme twisting and ignoring key verses.

So when do you plan on discussing the concept of "And then the judgment", it seems your earlier comment indicates you think that this statement simply isn't true, but you didn't substantiate what it means exactly.

 

[Pegg]

thats ok shermana,
like i said, Plato has many followers.

 

[Shermana]

thats ok shermana,
like i said, Plato has many followers.

That's okay, you don't have to actually answer what "And then the judgment" means.

And Plato's got some good ideas, but he didn't write the concept of the afterlife, which has existed for ages since probably even before the Sumerians.

If you want to ascribe all the Jewish teachings to "Hellenistic Paganism" about the Afterlife, that's a nice opinion but simply isn't historically accurate whatsoever.

Russel has many followers too, the idea that the Israelites were told to avoid speaking to the dead when they weren't actually speaking to the dead kind of implies Moses was told a lie. The idea that the text specifically says it was in fact Samuel's soul implies the author of Samuel was lying too.