Hebrews 9:27 vs Lazarus: Die only once?

[Pegg]

As for my big three questions and Pegg. She told me
"John 14:25 “While remaining with YOU I have spoken these things to YOU. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.

If God is using holy spirit to guide our understanding and help us to know the scriptures, then surely it is going to be more reliable then a fallible human?"


This got me greatly confused because I thought the Jehovah's Witnesses did not believe in modern day revelation. Would the spirit of God today telling man what the scriptures say be considered modern day revelation? I would say so yes.

So I stated my BIG Three statements as to how the Bible does not interpret itself and how we need modern day revelation in order to understand the Bible and Pegg seemed to agree with me. Do you agree with me?

hey Yaddo,

here's a thought for you on the bolded question...

Who was Jesus speaking to when he said 'I will send the helper'? Was it not to his apostles?
What exactly was the spirit going to do for them???
See John 14:26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU

What do you think the apostles were able to accomplish with the help of that spirit 'bringing back to their minds' all that Jesus taught them???

 

[Ken Brown]

I think there's a reason why none of the orthodox commentators have made this particular interpretation about this "hardest verse in the NT". Because it's about being directly related to the resurrection. I don't see how your interpretation of it having to do with a washing ritual for touching the dead has anything to do with it.

Explain how your interpretation connects: "Why are people baptized for them" with "If the dead are not raised at all".

Hi Shermana, Paul begins the chapter reminding the Corinthians about the Gospel he first preached to them, and that Gospel is according to the Scriptures. The Foundational Scripture it is according to is the Ordinance of The Torah, the Ritual of the Red Heifer. There would have been no doubt whatsoever as to what v29 was referencing in the minds of those he was speaking with. The Ritual of the Red Heifer has veiled within it the suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection of Yeshua, and the function or purpose of this ritual is to separate a sinner from their sin, and to CLEANSE them from coming into contact with the dead (cleansing from the defilement of death). After a person came into contact with the dead, they would have the Ashes of the Red Heifer (which had Living Water added to them in the vessel) sprinkled upon the defiled person, and once they washed (were baptized), they were cleansed. Paul's reasoning is WHY go through this ritual if there is no cleansing from death, WHY be washed because of or on account of the dead, if there is no ultimate cleansing from death, and the dead rise not.

Now, Paul didn't have to go into the detail that I just did because he had already taught them about the washing or baptizing concerning the dead, and this is just a reminder to them. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

Really? I suppose these references said nothing then...

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Otherwise, what shall those do who are baptized for the sake of the dead, if the dead do not live again? Why are they baptized for the sake of the dead?

New Living Translation (©2007)
If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?

English Standard Version (©2001)
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

In most translations it says "baptized for them"

One more reason why my 3 BIG questions concerning the translation and understanding of the Bible are really important questions that should not be ignored.

Hi yaddoe, the translators do not have a clue as to what Paul is speaking about and they are all over the place in trying to give meaning to what Paul was saying (that is when you look at ALL the different translations of this verse). None of the translators know about the Gospel which is according to the Scriptures which Paul references in the first few verses, and that is why they fail in their attempt to translate properly. Look at the post above and see what I write to Shermana. KB

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Soooo, do you believe baptism requires water at all?

Well, that was only a ritual. I guess the intention was that symbolically by going in water One becomes pure. Not that actually this would happen only by this ritual action. But there must have been a way to "signalize" ones belief in Jesus, and this is how it was ordained.
But I would be more concerned with the idea that Resurrection to be interpreted literally anywhere. There is good evidence from Scriptures that, by Resurrection of the Dead, the Authors meant a spiritual meaning, and never they meant a physical resurrection of the Dead. If one believes the Scriptures are inspired by God, one should believe God is not the Author of confusion. So, He would be consistant. If there are many verses that indicates a spiritual Resurrection, then other verses must be consistantly interpreted as such, so it may be true of God that He is not Author of confusion. For how could He has inspired Scriptures inconsistantly to confuse His people?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Hi yaddoe, the translators do not have a clue as to what Paul is speaking about and they are all over the place in trying to give meaning to what Paul was saying (that is when you look at ALL the different translations of this verse). None of the translators know about the Gospel which is according to the Scriptures which Paul references in the first few verses, and that is why they fail in their attempt to translate properly. Look at the post above and see what I write to Shermana. KB

Interesinting how only one out of 18 different translations seem to agree with you.

New International Version (©1984)
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

New Living Translation (©2007)
If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?

English Standard Version (©2001)
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

International Standard Version (©2008)
Otherwise, what will those people do who are being baptized because of those who have died? If the dead are not raised at all, why are they being baptized because of them?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Otherwise, what shall those do who are baptized for the sake of the dead, if the dead do not live again? Why are they baptized for the sake of the dead?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
However, people are baptized because the dead [will come back to life]. What will they do? If the dead can't come back to life, why do people get baptized as if they can [come back to life]?

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

American King James Version
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

American Standard Version
Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

Douay-Rheims Bible
Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

Darby Bible Translation
Since what shall the baptised for the dead do if those that are dead rise not at all? why also are they baptised for them?

English Revised Version
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

Webster's Bible Translation
Else what will they do, who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Weymouth New Testament
Otherwise what will become of those who got themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead do not rise at all, why are these baptized for them?

World English Bible
Or else what will they do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead aren't raised at all, why then are they baptized for the dead?

Young's Literal Translation
Seeing what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?


Which manuscript did you get your translation of this verse from,
the Alexandrian, the Egyptian, the Eclectic, the Western, the Byzantine, or another manuscript? Perhaps this is a disagreement between manuscripts.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Hi Shermana, Paul begins the chapter reminding the Corinthians about the Gospel he first preached to them, and that Gospel is according to the Scriptures. The Foundational Scripture it is according to is the Ordinance of The Torah, the Ritual of the Red Heifer. There would have been no doubt whatsoever as to what v29 was referencing in the minds of those he was speaking with. The Ritual of the Red Heifer has veiled within it the suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection of Yeshua, and the function or purpose of this ritual is to separate a sinner from their sin, and to CLEANSE them from coming into contact with the dead (cleansing from the defilement of death). After a person came into contact with the dead, they would have the Ashes of the Red Heifer (which had Living Water added to them in the vessel) sprinkled upon the defiled person, and once they washed (were baptized), they were cleansed. Paul's reasoning is WHY go through this ritual if there is no cleansing from death, WHY be washed because of or on account of the dead, if there is no ultimate cleansing from death, and the dead rise not.

Now, Paul didn't have to go into the detail that I just did because he had already taught them about the washing or baptizing concerning the dead, and this is just a reminder to them. KB

I feel like you are making a lot of assumptions here, do you have any evidence that Paul was speaking about any kind of red heifer rituals?

" 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."

It seems to me the gospel he preached beforehand was concerning Christ's atonement and resurrection. Sorry, I don't see any red heifer ritual references here...

 

[Ken Brown]

I feel like you are making a lot of assumptions here, do you have any evidence that Paul was speaking about any kind of red heifer rituals?

" 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."

It seems to me the gospel he preached beforehand was concerning Christ's atonement and resurrection. Sorry, I don't see any red heifer ritual references here...

Hi yaddoe, it's a matter of having your mind opened to see it. Yeshua BEGAN with Moses in explaining about His suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection as He OPENED the minds of His disciples to understand what was written. The Ritual of the Red Heifer (which is the Foundation or Constitution of the Torah), has all of what happened to Yeshua veiled within it. Take a gander at it and see if you can spot the cross/stake, the robe, and the hyssop which was cast into the midst of the burning of the Heifer. Oh, and don't forget, just as the bodies of those animals were "burnt" outside the camp, so also, Yeshua "suffered" outside the city gate. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

Interesinting how only one out of 18 different translations seem to agree with you.

New International Version (©1984)
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

New Living Translation (©2007)
If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?

English Standard Version (©2001)
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

International Standard Version (©2008)
Otherwise, what will those people do who are being baptized because of those who have died? If the dead are not raised at all, why are they being baptized because of them?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Otherwise, what shall those do who are baptized for the sake of the dead, if the dead do not live again? Why are they baptized for the sake of the dead?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
However, people are baptized because the dead [will come back to life]. What will they do? If the dead can't come back to life, why do people get baptized as if they can [come back to life]?

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

American King James Version
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

American Standard Version
Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

Douay-Rheims Bible
Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

Darby Bible Translation
Since what shall the baptised for the dead do if those that are dead rise not at all? why also are they baptised for them?

English Revised Version
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

Webster's Bible Translation
Else what will they do, who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Weymouth New Testament
Otherwise what will become of those who got themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead do not rise at all, why are these baptized for them?

World English Bible
Or else what will they do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead aren't raised at all, why then are they baptized for the dead?

Young's Literal Translation
Seeing what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?


Which manuscript did you get your translation of this verse from,
the Alexandrian, the Egyptian, the Eclectic, the Western, the Byzantine, or another manuscript? Perhaps this is a disagreement between manuscripts.

Hi yaddoe, we did not get our understanding from any translation or commentary, but the International Standard Version 2008 isn't too bad. KB

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Hi yaddoe, it's a matter of having your mind opened to see it. Yeshua BEGAN with Moses in explaining about His suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection as He OPENED the minds of His disciples to understand what was written. The Ritual of the Red Heifer (which is the Foundation or Constitution of the Torah), has all of what happened to Yeshua veiled within it. Take a gander at it and see if you can spot the cross/stake, the robe, and the hyssop which was cast into the midst of the burning of the Heifer. Oh, and don't forget, just as the bodies of those animals were "burnt" outside the camp, so also, Yeshua "suffered" outside the city gate. KB

First, Last time I checked Yeshua BEGAN preaching long before Moses's Day.
Did not Abraham sacrificing Isaac symbolize the Father Sacrificing the Son?

A good question would be when was the very first baptism ever preformed? I do not believe for a second that Moses was the first to ever be baptized.

Secondly, Paul was referring to the gospel that Paul had previously preached unto them, not Yeshua. Though Yeshua did previously preach the same thing.
hence " I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you"

 

[Ken Brown]

First, Last time I checked Yeshua BEGAN preaching long before Moses's Day.
Did not Abraham sacrificing Isaac symbolize the Father Sacrificing the Son?

A good question would be when was the very first baptism ever preformed? I do not believe for a second that Moses was the first to ever be baptized.

Secondly, Paul was referring to the gospel that Paul had previously preached unto them, not Yeshua. Though Yeshua did previously preach the same thing.
hence " I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you"

Hi yaddoe, I'm not sure you understood properly:

(Lk 24:27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yeshua BEGAN with what Moses wrote in explaining to His disciples about His suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection. His disciples hearts BURNED within them as He OPENED Moses' writings to them:

(Lk 24:32) And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Also, concerning the Gospel that Paul preached, it was the same Gospel he received from Yeshua, so he preached the exact Gospel the other disciples heard:

Gal 1:11 - 1:12
(11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.(12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Yeshua Messiah.

And that Gospel was based upon what Moses wrote. Moses wrote about Yeshua, and if one does not believe what Moses wrote, neither will they believe what Yeshua says:

Jn 5:46 - 5:47
(46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.(47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Hopefully this helps to clarify what I meant about the One True Gospel which is ACCORDING to what Moses wrote. KB

 

[Shermana]

Hi Shermana, Paul begins the chapter reminding the Corinthians about the Gospel he first preached to them, and that Gospel is according to the Scriptures. The Foundational Scripture it is according to is the Ordinance of The Torah, the Ritual of the Red Heifer. There would have been no doubt whatsoever as to what v29 was referencing in the minds of those he was speaking with. The Ritual of the Red Heifer has veiled within it the suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection of Yeshua, and the function or purpose of this ritual is to separate a sinner from their sin, and to CLEANSE them from coming into contact with the dead (cleansing from the defilement of death). After a person came into contact with the dead, they would have the Ashes of the Red Heifer (which had Living Water added to them in the vessel) sprinkled upon the defiled person, and once they washed (were baptized), they were cleansed. Paul's reasoning is WHY go through this ritual if there is no cleansing from death, WHY be washed because of or on account of the dead, if there is no ultimate cleansing from death, and the dead rise not.

Now, Paul didn't have to go into the detail that I just did because he had already taught them about the washing or baptizing concerning the dead, and this is just a reminder to them. KB

Okay I don't see how that remotely fits with what the Greek says, and I don't think I quite understand what you mean how the raising of the dead has to do with cleansing from touching a dead body, do you happen to know any website or scholar that has this interpretation or translation so I can see further details or is this entirely your own view?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Hi yaddoe, I'm not sure you understood properly:

(Lk 24:27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Yeshua BEGAN with what Moses wrote in explaining to His disciples about His suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection. His disciples hearts BURNED within them as He OPENED Moses' writings to them:

(Lk 24:32) And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Also, concerning the Gospel that Paul preached, it was the same Gospel he received from Yeshua, so he preached the exact Gospel the other disciples heard:

Gal 1:11 - 1:12
(11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.(12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Yeshua Messiah.

And that Gospel was based upon what Moses wrote. Moses wrote about Yeshua, and if one does not believe what Moses wrote, neither will they believe what Yeshua says:

Jn 5:46 - 5:47
(46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.(47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Hopefully this helps to clarify what I meant about the One True Gospel which is ACCORDING to what Moses wrote. KB

I do agree that all the prophets taught the same gospel.
This is why I believe the principals of baptism were nothing new in Christ's day and I believe every prophet that had ever lived had been baptized by immersion even as Christ was baptized by immersion.

Now I agree with Shermana concerning the disconnect between baptizing for the dead and cleansing oneself after being in contact with a dead person or animal.

I also believe that the Gospel is rather vast and there are many elements within the gospel. (Law of tithing, prayer, charity, faith, priesthood, baptism, the Holy Spirit, The Fall of Adam and Eve and the need for the Savior, prophecies concerning the last days, the scattering and gathering of Israel, the law of sacrifice, the law of Moses etc.

I think you are making a BIG assumption in saying that Paul was referring to the Red Heifer Ritual, especially considering the fact that the Law of Moses was fulfilled. Using your logic I have just as much grounds to say Paul was referring to the Passover rituals, or the Jonah and the whale story (which I don't believe he was).

Why bother saying baptized for the dead, when according to you it would be better said, "Why then are they baptized at all".

 

[Ken Brown]

Okay I don't see how that remotely fits with what the Greek says, and I don't think I quite understand what you mean how the raising of the dead has to do with cleansing from touching a dead body, do you happen to know any website or scholar that has this interpretation or translation so I can see further details or is this entirely your own view?

Hi Shermana, Paul saw that the Law was Spiritual. He could see things like muzzling an ox really had a deeper meaning, and asked the question, "Is it oxen Elohim is concerned about?" In the same way Paul would look at having to wash after coming into contact with the dead, and see a deeper meaning. In Numbers 19:14 it states that when a man dies in a tent, all that come into the tent, and all that are in the tent shall be unclean. What is the deeper meaning here? Hebrews 9 speaks of two tents. An inner tent (Holy of Holies), and an outer tent (the Holy Place). We are told in verse 8 that the deeper meaning of the outer tent (the Holy Place) is this present age/time. So when Yeshua came into the tent of this present age (the Holy Place) and died, all who were presently living in the tent of this present age, and all who would ever come into the tent of this present age, were defiled by His death. It goes on to explain that the High Priest has to walk through the outer tent (the Holy Place-this present age) before he can enter into the inner tent (the Holy of Holies-Heaven itself). Look at v24. Yeshua is presenting residing in the the inner tent (not made with hands), Heaven itself.

So you state Shermana, "I don't think I quite understand what you mean how the raising of the dead has to do with cleansing from touching a dead body." Do you really think that it was a "cleanliness" issue for coming into contact with the dead that Elohim was concerned with? Was that washing really a picture of physical cleanliness. No. The washing or baptism, that all who are defiled by coming into contact with the dead must accomplish, is the Spiritual picture of being cleanse from death unto life, and that is the resurrection. The purpose of Elohim giving the command to the Jewish people to wash "for" the dead is a sure sign that He plans to cleanse us from the defilement of death through the Sprinkling of the Ashes of the Red Heifer upon the unclean, and then having us wash/be baptized. The Sprinkling of the Ashes is the Preaching of the Gospel, and once the Gospel has been Sprinkled on a defiled sinner, the defiled sinner must wash/be baptized, and that cleanses them from coming into contact with the dead body of Yeshua in the tent of this present age. The Jewish people have duly noted that it is a great mystery as to how the Ashes of the Red Heifer BOTH defile and cleanse, and it can only be understood by looking at the Messiah as being the Red Heifer.

So IF the dead do not rise, why would Elohim have the Jewish people wash "for" the dead, and go through this ritual, if the dead are never raised with a cleansing from death?

There are no websites or scholars, to my knowledge, that has this interpretation. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

I do agree that all the prophets taught the same gospel.
This is why I believe the principals of baptism were nothing new in Christ's day and I believe every prophet that had ever lived had been baptized by immersion even as Christ was baptized by immersion.

Now I agree with Shermana concerning the disconnect between baptizing for the dead and cleansing oneself after being in contact with a dead person or animal.

I also believe that the Gospel is rather vast and there are many elements within the gospel. (Law of tithing, prayer, charity, faith, priesthood, baptism, the Holy Spirit, The Fall of Adam and Eve and the need for the Savior, prophecies concerning the last days, the scattering and gathering of Israel, the law of sacrifice, the law of Moses etc.

I think you are making a BIG assumption in saying that Paul was referring to the Red Heifer Ritual, especially considering the fact that the Law of Moses was fulfilled. Using your logic I have just as much grounds to say Paul was referring to the Passover rituals, or the Jonah and the whale story (which I don't believe he was).

Why bother saying baptized for the dead, when according to you it would be better said, "Why then are they baptized at all".

Hi yaddoe, think along these lines. When someone gets vaccinated "for" the flu, are they being vaccinated in the stead of or in the proxy of the "flu," or is it that they are being vaccinated for themselves, for the infection they might receive from the possible contact WITH the flu? In the same way, the Jewish people were being baptized "for" the dead...the contact and defilement caused by the dead which required them to be washed/baptized. It's not really that difficult to see, is it? I hope not. KB

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Ken Brown, Shermana, Yaddoe, et All,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
This, in my humble estimation, is a marvelous thread which reminds me somewhat of how the oral arguments found in the Tractates of the Talmud often digress into some very interesting and important issues.
Very few Christians would have any knowledge of the Oral Traditions of the Jews, and neither would they think it important to study or search into the Traditions of Judaism. The Elders of Judaism around the middle of the last century BCE decreed that any Jew who traveled outside the borders of Israel must automatically go through the process of purification (Numbers 19) upon their return to Israel. The Elders reasoned that it was almost impossible for a Jew to travel amongst Gentile nations and not come into contact with a grave and, therefore, be defiled by that contact (see Numbers 19:16).
Should we look, we can readily see that the Apostle Paul submitted to this tradition and requirement in Acts 21:23-27 where Paul agreed to go through the process of purification along with four Jewish believers in Messiah who had themselves been defiled through contact with the dead before their Nazarite vow had been successfully completed (see Numbers 6:9). Please notice that purification from the defilement of physical death is normally a Temple (Acts 21:26-27) process that ends with water baptism (see Numbers 19:19).
Once you become aware that water baptism is necessary for all Jews who were defiled or who have become unclean through contact with the dead, then it becomes possible to view Paul's reference to baptism for the dead along the line of reasoning that Ken Brown has presented.
Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:29 is recalling the number of times in his life that he and others had endured the process of purification in order to remove the defilement of physical death. Paul reasoned that if it is possible to remove the physical defilement that comes through contact with the physically dead through the process of purification, then it must be possible that physical death itself is purged through the resurrection; otherwise, why should there be any law that promotes the removal of the defilement of death if death itself cannot be removed? Death is removed and the dead are ultimately purified from death through the resurrection!
Please forgive my intrusion on this thread. I agree with Ken Brown, and it is my hope that my comments do not cloud in any way for any of you what he has thus far presented concerning baptism for the dead.
Thanking any in advance that should be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Hi yaddoe, think along these lines. When someone gets vaccinated "for" the flu, are they being vaccinated in the stead of or in the proxy of the "flu," or is it that they are being vaccinated for themselves, for the infection they might receive from the possible contact WITH the flu? In the same way, the Jewish people were being baptized "for" the dead...the contact and defilement caused by the dead which required them to be washed/baptized. It's not really that difficult to see, is it? I hope not. KB

First, when someone gets vaccinated for the flu they are injected or given weakened strands of the flu.

Second, are you trying to tell me that instead of dying Jewish people were baptized so they wouldn't have to die?

Third, you never answered my question as to which manuscript you are getting your translation of 1st Corinthians 15:29.

New International Version (©1984)
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

As you can see the NIV and several other translations that I have before listed said, "baptized for them" Perhaps the NIV translated 1st Corinthians 15:29 from a different manuscript than the one you translated it from. I find the word, "for them" to be extreamly essential. What was exact Greek word?
The BIG question we are arguing about here is were they getting baptized for themselves, or were they getting baptized on behalf of someone else?

I learned today that Muslims travel to Mecca in order to become spiritually clean, the first time they go it is for them self, and then after that they can go on behalf of someone else, which can even be for someone who has died and has never been to Mecca. I am only mentioning this so you can understand what I am meaning by the word vicarious.

 

[Ken Brown]

First, when someone gets vaccinated for the flu they are injected or given weakened strands of the flu.

Second, are you trying to tell me that instead of dying Jewish people were baptized so they wouldn't have to die?

Third, you never answered my question as to which manuscript you are getting your translation of 1st Corinthians 15:29.

New International Version (©1984)
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

As you can see the NIV and several other translations that I have before listed said, "baptized for them" Perhaps the NIV translated 1st Corinthians 15:29 from a different manuscript than the one you translated it from. I find the word, "for them" to be extreamly essential. What was exact Greek word?
The BIG question we are arguing about here is were they getting baptized for themselves, or were they getting baptized on behalf of someone else?

I learned today that Muslims travel to Mecca in order to become spiritually clean, the first time they go it is for them self, and then after that they can go on behalf of someone else, which can even be for someone who has died and has never been to Mecca. I am only mentioning this so you can understand what I am meaning by the word vicarious.

Hi Yaddoe, this whole discussion resolves around the Greek word "huper," and the misuse of it. Traditional chrisitianity wants to use that Greek word and slant it towards a vicarious meaning, and that really should not be done.

To give you an example, our soldiers have been dying "for" our country to free our country from its enemies in many wars, does that mean that our soldiers are dying in the stead of or the place of Americans? No, you can die for a purpose , you can die to save someone's life, and even die for their sake, but that does not mean you are dying in their stead as a proxy or substitute.

Take 1 Cor 15:3 for example, Yeshua died "for" our sins according to the Scriptures. Most take that to mean that a wicked person could not pay the penalty of their sin and the only way to satisfy god's justice is to have a proxy or substitute that was Innocent and Righteous die in their place. Yet, that concept of killing or murdering the Innocent and Righteous is against Scripture, not according to it:

(Ex 23:7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

(Prov 17:15) He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to Yahweh.

(Gen 18:25) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Yeshua died for our sins to TAKE THEM AWAY, so that we no longer actively dwell IN sin, and He was willing to give up His life to save us OUT of sin. Our sins are what killed Him, and when a Believer accepts and acknowledges this truth, they only have one option, flee from sin and stop killing Yeshua. This truth of the Gospel did not remain as wolves and deceivers infiltrated, therefore a strong delusion was placed on the minds of those who refused to continue in loving the truth. A false, substitutional gospel, requiring the killing or murder of the Righteous and Innocent One as a proxy, was set up in the place of the One True Gospel. This false gospel, which has been delusionally placed upon those who refused to come out of sin, is a false scale and balance, it's not according to true justice, and it is an abomination:

(Prov 11:1) A false balance [is] abomination to Yahweh: but a just weight [is] his delight.

Killing Yeshua and placing Him in the stead or proxy of the wicked is an unjust weight, and a false balance, and an abomination that causes desolation. So when you "see" this abomination of a false scale and unjust balance, a sinner must flee from sin unto the mountains of righteousness, and don't even consider that Yeshua was dying in your place or stead.

So Yaddoe, when you ask what translation was used to determine what Paul meant about baptizing "for" the dead, it's the same one you use, but I prefer to not slant it vicariously. KB