Hebrews 9:27 vs Lazarus: Die only once?

[Pegg]

I think he's asking by what you think it means, wherever it says this, that all sin will be removed. Will this be through magic mind control? Or will all the people somehow train themselves to never commit lawlessness again?

what does the new covenant tell us?

 

[Shermana]

what does the new covenant tell us?

What do you think it does?

It says in Jeremiah ABOUT the new covenant that the Law will be written on the hearts of Israel and Judah. Does that mean they'll always obey it? What do you think that passage means?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

i have no idea what your question means....can you elaborate?

Agency is the ability to choose whether we want to do right or wrong.
The only way to truly eliminate sin would be to eliminate our agency and turn us into robots.

 

[Pegg]

What do you think it does?

It says in Jeremiah ABOUT the new covenant that the Law will be written on the hearts of Israel and Judah. Does that mean they'll always obey it? What do you think that passage means?

the heart is the seat of motivation

So you tell me, would a person who didnt love Gods laws break them?

To illustrate it... imagine I place a plate of your favorite food in front of you. Then i place a plate of a food you absolutely hate. Is it going to be a difficult decision on which one you will eat? Not likely...and it is the same with Gods laws. If we learn to love Gods laws (put them on the heart) it will be easier for us to stick to them and obey them.
Its just as Amos stated:
Amos 5:15 Hate what is bad, and love what is good ....

 

[Pegg]

Agency is the ability to choose whether we want to do right or wrong.
The only way to truly eliminate sin would be to eliminate our agency and turn us into robots.

sin is eliminated when people choose to do 'good' rather then 'bad'.

 

[Shermana]

the heart is the seat of motivation

So you tell me, would a person who didnt love Gods laws break them?

To illustrate it... imagine I place a plate of your favorite food in front of you. Then i place a plate of a food you absolutely hate. Is it going to be a difficult decision on which one you will eat? Not likely...and it is the same with Gods laws. If we learn to love Gods laws (put them on the heart) it will be easier for us to stick to them and obey them.
Its just as Amos stated:
Amos 5:15 Hate what is bad, and love what is good ....

That doesn't really answer my question.

Is humanity going to be reduced to only those who truly love God and will live in total compliance with the Law?

 

[Pegg]

That doesn't really answer my question.

Is humanity going to be reduced to only those who truly love God and will live in total compliance with the Law?

What do the scriptures say?

ie,

Psalm 37:10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

sin is eliminated when people choose to do 'good' rather then 'bad'.

True, but when you eliminate the option to choose bad, there is no longer any choice now is there.

If there is the option to choose bad, does bad still exist?
If everyone were to always choose the right I would say the concept of bad exists, but no one is choosing it. I believe this is the way things are in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Pegg]

True, but when you eliminate the option to choose bad, there is no longer any choice now is there.

If there is the option to choose bad, does bad still exist?
If everyone were to always choose the right I would say the concept of bad exists, but no one is choosing it. I believe this is the way things are in the Kingdom of God.

bad only exists in 'action'

The option to choose is still there, but what prompts a person to choose a bad course depends on their attitude toward it. If they have the right attitude toward something bad, they wont do it and it will be their choice based on how they themselves view it.

So removing sin does not remove choice. God is not literally going to take sin out of us... but he is going to teach us how to love his law.

 

[Shermana]

What do the scriptures say?

ie,

Psalm 37:10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.

That's not necessarily referring to a one time event where all the wicked in the world will be destroyed. It most likely is referring to individual evildoers for each person's age.

In Revelation, the New Jerusalem will be protected from all the legions of evil doers, even after they have been punished with a great deal of torments. It never says they will be completely eradicated.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

bad only exists in 'action'

The option to choose is still there, but what prompts a person to choose a bad course depends on their attitude toward it. If they have the right attitude toward something bad, they wont do it and it will be their choice based on how they themselves view it.

So removing sin does not remove choice. God is not literally going to take sin out of us... but he is going to teach us how to love his law.

Sounds like another way of saying what I just said, it sounds like we are in agreement, we just say things differently. Except for the part where you believe all evildoers cease to exist, while I believe they are exiled to outer darkness.

 

[Pegg]

Sounds like another way of saying what I just said, it sounds like we are in agreement, we just say things differently. Except for the part where you believe all evildoers cease to exist, while I believe they are exiled to outer darkness.

yes well your belief hinges on an immortal soul... but if souls are not immortal as we believe, then the wicked will simply cease to exist.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

yes well your belief hinges on an immortal soul... but if souls are not immortal as we believe, then the wicked will simply cease to exist.

Yup and that is where we disagree.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

yes well your belief hinges on an immortal soul... but if souls are not immortal as we believe, then the wicked will simply cease to exist.

Now for my big unanswered questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit they did this as a challenge to God’s right to rule. After that this earth became a proving ground, a place to prove to all the host of heaven that God does have the right to rule, that his ways are better and that we will be happier if we choose to follow him.

- Question 1) If this is a proving ground to see who makes the better leader, why does God have both the righteous and the unrighteous in the same testing box? Would it not make more sense to put the righteous in one box and the unrighteous in another box and watch the unrighteous destroy themselves while the righteous have peace forever?

Jehovah’s Witnesses have previously replied, "Well how is God going to know who the righteous and the unrighteous are before they have even done anything?"

- They would have to prove themselves worthy of the box they get placed in.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have previously replied, "Well God did separate the righteous from the unrighteous in the times of Noah. He commanded them to get on the arc and when they didn’t they destroyed themselves."

- Did they destroy themselves or did God destroy them? If some robbers were to break into my house and I were to pull a gun on them and say get out of here or I will shoot you, and they then choose to stay, so I shoot them; did the they kill themselves, or was it the person who pulled the trigger?

Question 2) Is God’s statement to the heavens, “might makes right” or “truth makes right?”
If the statement is might makes right, why did God not just destroy Satan the moment he rebelled, would that not of made the same statement?
If the statement is truth makes right, again why are the righteous mixed with the unrighteous here on earth, would it not make more sense to separate the two test subjects so you can watch one group destroy themselves while the other dwells in peace forever?

 

[Pegg]

Now for my big unanswered questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit they did this as a challenge to God’s right to rule. After that this earth became a proving ground, a place to prove to all the host of heaven that God does have the right to rule, that his ways are better and that we will be happier if we choose to follow him.

firstly, the world is not really a 'proving ground'..... i say this because God will not always permit wickedness or the challenge of what is right to exist. There will come the day when God will say 'enough'
And then there will be no more 'tolerence' on his part of what is bad. Right now he tolerates wickedness... but he will not always do so.

- Question 1) If this is a proving ground to see who makes the better leader, why does God have both the righteous and the unrighteous in the same testing box? Would it not make more sense to put the righteous in one box and the unrighteous in another box and watch the unrighteous destroy themselves while the righteous have peace forever?

God is not partial. The fact is that he wants EVERYONE to turn to righteousness. Therefore he allows each of us to make our choice and we all live in this same world together....he doesnt put us in one box until after we have chosen where we want to be. So we choose, not him.

“I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive.”—DEUTERONOMY 30:19.

obviously he wants us to choose the right path...but it has to be our choice to do so.

Question 2) Is God’s statement to the heavens, “might makes right” or “truth makes right?”
If the statement is might makes right, why did God not just destroy Satan the moment he rebelled, would that not of made the same statement?
If the statement is truth makes right, again why are the righteous mixed with the unrighteous here on earth, would it not make more sense to separate the two test subjects so you can watch one group destroy themselves while the other dwells in peace forever?

God is not testing us...Satan is.

And i dont know if you are refering to a scripture or some other saying, but I think God has proved beyond any doubt that he is not interested in using brut force to end wickedness. He has allowed time to pass to give mankind an opportunity to be self governed and he has not interfered. He has allowed mankind to create many different forms of government, he has allowed them to achieve scientifically and advance technologically... he has not prevented them from anything.

In his wisdom he has done this for the purpose of letting all see just what results when mankind do not adhere to his righteous standards. The world is not a happy place for anyone...this is why so many are turning to God and asking for help.

eventually he will step in, and he will show his might. But until then 'truth makes right'

 

[Avoice]

As a matter of fact no where the Authors of Bible said they are writing "literal" historical fact.

They said all scriptures are inspired by God.




Dear Peg, in other places in Bible (Hebrew and NT) the expression being in "tomb" has also been used in a symbolic way. Meaning being dead in the Tomb of sinful desires.

That Lazare was sick, also can mean, a spritual disease, in a sense that he had a desease of heart. Or impurity of the soul due to being sinful.
In another words, the scripture symbolically is talking about the "Spirit" of Laz. that was sick due to being sinfull, and He was dead and burried in the Tomb of sin and selfish desire.
When Jesus went to him after a few days, He resurrected him by teaching Him the Truth, and giving him Faith.


I think One of the key verses to interprete this story is this verse:

John 11:4 "When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."


Now we need to carefully analyze what the "Authors" of Bible meant by "gloryfying God", not what we think "glorifying" means.

For that we can refer to other verses which are the key:


Mat. 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."



and

John 15:8 "Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit"

Thus it becomes clear that, according to the Authors of Bible, when the followers of Christ become fruitful and do good works and become rigtous, that Glorifies God. Not performing literal Miracles as many would imagine, even as Jesus rejected to do any literal and physical Miracles:


"He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it." Mark 8:12




Being witness, is also mean those who witnessed that Laz. was a sinful man, but later he became a rightous man (he was dead, then he became alive). Just like the son of the old man, who others were also witness in that party...
Now since Laz. was dead in sin, spiritually sick in the eyes of others, and when Jesus made him spiritually alive, by this God was glorified,

"This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God"

Jesus healed a demoniac or two and never used dead in referring to them. To most if not all Jesus said: "Go and sin no more." By your definition were these not "spiritually dead"?

 

[Avoice]

I think he's asking by what you think it means, wherever it says this, that all sin will be removed. Will this be through magic mind control? Or will all the people somehow train themselves to never commit lawlessness again?

The way I read end time prophesies, all that will be left are those who wish, of their own free will, to live sinless lives.

 

[Avoice]

What do you think it does?

It says in Jeremiah ABOUT the new covenant that the Law will be written on the hearts of Israel and Judah. Does that mean they'll always obey it? What do you think that passage means?

If said law is written on the heart, it will be the first choice of those left after the end times.

 

[Avoice]

True, but when you eliminate the option to choose bad, there is no longer any choice now is there.

If there is the option to choose bad, does bad still exist?
If everyone were to always choose the right I would say the concept of bad exists, but no one is choosing it. I believe this is the way things are in the Kingdom of God.

I don't think the ability to choose will ever be impacted. People will simply choose to obey God instead of fleshly desires.

 

[cataway]

is yaddoe saying the soul does not die ?