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Hedonism vs. Asceticism

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
Like others have said, it is about moderation. At least in my humble opinion.

We shouldn't deny ourselves pleasure. We have only a short time on this planet (at least in this lifetime :D), so let's eat, be around loved ones and try brand new things. As long as, of course, we are ultimately careful and are aware of the consequences. Conversely, we shouldn't completely lose ourselves in sensual pleasure either. There is more to life than doing physically pleasurable things for the mere sake of doing them.

Find your middle path and walk it.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
What about this idea of more overt asceticism as a means of contrast and commentary on the excesses and hubris of society?
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
If moderation is always relative to one's cultural grid, then it might even still be excessive relative to primal nature. The context seems important in determining the appropriate degree of self-regulation. Do we tend to just go by what's socially acceptable and enforced? Or gauge according to the measures and methods of nature?

Certain religious and philosophical guides tend to emphasize a greater degree of temperance. Perhaps from the disciplined mindset, one is lucid enough to more closely observe nature and then better organize their pleasure-seeking and meaning-making intelligently.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Not sure if anyone is or cares to follow the counter argument I'm making about possible limitations with the consensus view... So I'll probably just end up arguing with myself. :D

Let's say that we live in a city of pigs where excessive indulgence is the norm. What would moderation look like then?

If it was common for people to go out on drinking bouts and have orgies every evening, then would moderation be every other evening? Would it be alright to feel good about oneself relative to the cultural norm?

What about the degree of pollution? If we only throw away one plastic bottle for every common person's three, then should we pat ourselves on the back?

Comparing oneself to others and cultural standards in determining moderation seems to be a flaw, even if it makes people feel good about themselves. Is this making sense to anybody?
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think it's natural and healthy to pursue reasonable desires to have an enjoyable existence. I think the extremes of unhealthy excess and forced abstinence from enjoyable things can often be misguided.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not sure if anyone is or cares to follow the counter argument I'm making about possible limitations with the consensus view... So I'll probably just end up arguing with myself. :D

Let's say that we live in a city of pigs where excessive indulgence is the norm. What would moderation look like then?

If it was common for people to go out on drinking bouts and have orgies every evening, then would moderation be every other evening? Would it be alright to feel good about oneself relative to the cultural norm?

What about the degree of pollution? If we only throw away one plastic bottle for every common person's three, then should we pat ourselves on the back?

Comparing oneself to others and cultural standards in determining moderation seems to be a flaw, even if it makes people feel good about themselves. Is this making sense to anybody?
I generally think it's better to compare activities to long-term sustainable species norms than current cultural fads, when it comes to determining what moderation is. Using a "city of pigs" as a basis would be a bad sample because it would be such a small sample of humans in time and space.

Two animals, for example, may use sex with different frequencies and for different purposes. Bonobos get it on more often than tigers, for example. What would be considered "moderation" is based on species norms.

Humans also use sex for both pleasuring and bonding and to a lesser extent, reproduction. Humans naturally desire tasty good food because that's the drive that has kept people alive. Humans generally don't naturally think in terms of sustainability because for most of human history with reasonable population levels, it hasn't been an issue other than conserving resources for winter.

Some things become excessive when used in ways that sort of "trick" the natural biology and cause harm. For example, people desire fats because in nature, fats are healthy energy and relatively hard to come by. But when processed fats and carbs are cheaply available in limitless quantities, this healthy and natural desire can be tricked into excess. It becomes a case where desire and health are at a mismatch for a lot of people, so it requires control. I think moderation means eating what is biologically and psychologically healthy for a human to eat, which has a range of correct answers but is not entirely subjective.

Sex has kind of moved in the opposite direction. With reliable methods to substantially reduce the risk of diseases and pregnancy, the dynamics of reward and risk have shifted. On the other side of the coin, just about every species starts having sex when they reach the age of reproduction, and humans reach the age of reproduction in their early teens. But with social views about not having sex until marriage and then having the average age of marriage in the mid or late 20's (plus crap ideas like trying not to teach kids anything about how sex works), the culture just doesn't work with the biology and so people of basically every culture find ways to ignore that idea. I think moderation means having sex at a frequency that meets the emotional and physical desires of the individual and her or his partner(s), and that is safe and consensual.

Basically by definition, everything that is environmentally unsustainable is excessive, even if it is less than that of peers. I can't see how it could be argued otherwise. Species must develop equilibrium with their environment. The problem people face is that so much of their environmental infastructure is unsustainable that even if they try really hard to be sustainable, they're most likely still being just "less unsustainable". For someone to try to have no negative environmental footprint in this culture is quite difficult- it can mean not having most forms of jobs and commutes, giving up travel to see family, avoiding all major places of purchasing things to find niche sources of sustainable goods and food, avoiding most electronics, etc. Basically, unlike things like sex and healthy eating where moderation is fairly easy to obtain, to be environmentally reasonable today requires being radical. Some people may pursue being radical but I think other people just have to work to change the culture by reducing things in their lives where they can, being mindful of population growth from themselves (since prior population growth was not their fault), and by bringing more awareness for the need to really reign things in environmentally. For most of human history being sustainable and moderate wasn't too hard but now with transportation and plastic and corporations, and especially overpopulation, one has to swim against rapids to make it work if they want to literally be sustainable.
 
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Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Thanks Pen!

That helped sort things out a little more on this topic. As usual, my thinking had become way too uptight about this case. As for Cynic style asceticism, who am I kidding? I'm a diehard hedonist in reality. :D
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Many religious and philosophical systems tend to emphasize asceticism. Self-denial is considered to be the only principled way of living.

Is this necessarily the case? What makes it virtuous under all circumstances?

Hedonism is probably one of the most basic human values. It simply means seeking pleasure for its own sake. This doesn't necessarily entail overindulgence. Different schools of thought have developed around this value.

What's wrong with seeking pleasure? Is hedonism necessarily opposed to virtuous conduct?

A lot of people think that hedonism means that you eat only the finest food off gold plates, drink only the finest wines from crystal goblets and all that. They are wrong. Hedonism is not about only having the finest things. Hedonism is about being able to sit down at a meal of a slice of stale bread and a glass of water and getting the same satisfaction from it as eating the finest banquet.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I see what you mean now. Sorry, there must have been a language issue initially.

No problem. And just to be clearer, I'm not sure following either path is going to guarantee any sort deliverance from living conditions or emotions. If anything, it creates a condition where issues must be treated under the tent of one of two terms, and where future action must be solved under a similar light, unless one is forced to revaluation values and perceptions of the world.

What about concerning one's self with the net pleasure of everyone?

I think the abolition of pain is the highest goal, and the most honorable. It doesn't necessarily yield much for the individual, but that is sort of the plight of altruism. Altruistic likely can never be grounded in reason, rational choices and deliberations at the time of said action. It's an impulse to help those we empathize with, because without others, we aren't anything at all.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
A lot of people think that hedonism means that you eat only the finest food off gold plates, drink only the finest wines from crystal goblets and all that. They are wrong. Hedonism is not about only having the finest things. Hedonism is about being able to sit down at a meal of a slice of stale bread and a glass of water and getting the same satisfaction from it as eating the finest banquet.

You're right.

An enlightened hedonist would find profound pleasure in the deep awareness of being alive and in enjoying simple things that are easy to come by without a lot of strings attached. Savoring the most basic meals is amplified after fasting/abstaining rather than constantly indulging. Also, appreciating rest is more apparent after working hard all day.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
I think the abolition of pain is the highest goal, and the most honorable. It doesn't necessarily yield much for the individual, but that is sort of the plight of altruism. Altruistic likely can never be grounded in reason, rational choices and deliberations at the time of said action. It's an impulse to help those we empathize with, because without others, we aren't anything at all.

Does it need to be a choice between altruism and egoism then? If we are nothing without others, then wouldn't it be in our enlightened self-interests to help each other?

I agree that rational deliberation has its limitations though, especially whenever it comes to altruistic action. Empathy and instinct do seem to play larger roles.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
In general, a modified Epicurean hedonism does still seem to make the most sense, even after test driving opposing perspectives for a few weeks. The focus can be (and why not?) on minimizing pain and anxiety for the global community as much as possible in the long term and then creating and sharing positive experiences within the context of negating suffering.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
You're right.

An enlightened hedonist would find profound pleasure in the deep awareness of being alive and in enjoying simple things that are easy to come by without a lot of strings attached. Savoring the most basic meals is amplified after fasting/abstaining rather than constantly indulging. Also, appreciating rest is more apparent after working hard all day.

*nods*

Hedonism is about finding only the great joy in all things, not about finding only things that bring the greatest joy.
 
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