Hell and the Prophets

[Neo Deist]

No the Bible does not say that Christians go to heaven upon death. That verse does not exist. If someone thinks it does, I challenge them to find it. Far too many Christians follow traditional teachings instead of biblical ones. Revelation 20 and 21 are often overlooked.

And no, there is no eternal torment in hell for non-believers. Those who do not pass judgment will be destroyed in the lake of fire, not tormented eternally.

 

[Ingledsva]

No the Bible does not say that Christians go to heaven upon death. That verse does not exist. If someone thinks it does, I challenge them to find it. Far too many Christians follow traditional teachings instead of biblical ones. Revelation 20 and 21 are often overlooked.

And no, there is no eternal torment in hell for non-believers. Those who do not pass judgment will be destroyed in the lake of fire, not tormented eternally.

Yep. those teaching were added later after foreign religious contact.

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[Madhuri]

Yep. those teaching were added later after foreign religious contact.

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I'm finding this all very interesting. Which religions do you think (or know) influenced these later additions?

 

[Kolibri]

No the Bible does not say that Christians go to heaven upon death. That verse does not exist. If someone thinks it does, I challenge them to find it. Far too many Christians follow traditional teachings instead of biblical ones. Revelation 20 and 21 are often overlooked.

And no, there is no eternal torment in hell for non-believers. Those who do not pass judgment will be destroyed in the lake of fire, not tormented eternally.

No eternal torment for anyone? Yes I understand that to be scripturally supportable.
Revelation 20 and 21 often overlooked? Possibly. One could reason that Rev 21:3,4 applies to to a changed condition for people living as humans.

No Bible text that says Christians will go to heaven upon death. - Does this "upon death" mean no heavenly reward at all or just at the time they die they must wait first? Consider please one passage that could support both a heavenly reward and also touch on whether or not they would have to wait in the Grave when they die before getting there.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Often this passage has been used (at least in the past) to support the idea of a rapture before Armageddon...especially as it reads in the Revised Standard Bible. Another way to understand it though could be that until Jesus becomes present as King of God's Kingdom, all those anointed to be with him in his reward will have to wait in the Grave. However, beginning with the renewed presence of our Lord, all these sleeping ones will be resurrected to heavenly life - any that die after that (with the same anointment) will no longer need to remain dead longer than an instant before receiving their reward. (see also 1 Corinthians 15:51,52).

Bypassing all that there is Philippians 3:20,21 - "But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to him."

 

[Neo Deist]

Bypassing all that there is Philippians 3:20,21 - "But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to him."

Heavens...the Hebrew word shamayim actually has 3 meanings:
The place where God dwells
The cosmos
The sky

In that particular verse "heavens" refers to the cosmos. Unless you think there is more than one paradise. However, per Revelation 21 the new earth does not have a sun or oceans. Sounds like a different planet entirely.

 

[Kolibri]

In this case heavens seems to have a 4th meaning..

It is interesting to note that this terminology of 'new heavens' and 'new earth' of Revelation 21:1 is also found at 2 Peter 3:13, Isaiah 65:17, and Isaiah 66:22.

M'Clintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: "In Isa. Ixv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people."

In this sense, the "new heavens" would be new rulership.

(Initial fulfillment of Isaiah's "new heavens" would have found meaning in Cyrus the Great, Governor Zerubbabel of Jerusalem, and High Priest Joshua when the Jews were being repatriated from Babylonian exile).

I am reminded that Revelation 1:1 said that these visions given to John pertaining to "the things that must shortly take place" was "presented in signs."
As such we would have to look at other parts of Bible to find meaning.

Psalms 96:1 presents "earth" as symbolic of "a society of people on the earth"
Isaiah 57:20 presents "the restless sea" as the wicked people that keep the world in an uproar.
One could thus project then that "earth" could also symbolize the firmer, more stable elements of mankind.
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For internal and contextual reasons 2 Peter 3:13 would also have these meanings and not carry a physical heavens and physical planet Earth concept. Peter just got done comparing the change to being like the Flood in Noah's day. That flood did not destroy the planet. Only the ungodly people on it. So the cleansing as if by fire mentioned in these verses would not destroy the literal planet nor the physical heavens that support it. Only the ungodly society and the forms of rulership over them would be replaced).
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I still don't know if you are postulating that no Christians ever go to dwell where God dwells.
How about 1 Peter 1:3,4 where it says the "inheritance...is reserved in the heavens for you." Would that imply that the people written to would have to get there to claim it?

 

[Blackmarch]

Hi guys,
I watched Exodus yesterday and was reminded of a question I've had for a while but keep forgetting about.

My understanding of your beliefs is that prior to Jesus appearance on Earth, absolutely everyone was damned to eternity in hell. But after he sacrificed his life, those who accept him as their saviour have access to eternity in heaven.

Firstly, is this correct?
If so, does this mean the prophets like Noah and Moses as well as the Hebrew people taken out of Egypt were also damned to hell?

it is not totally accurate. You do have to accept him as your savior to get to heaven- however
1 A messiah has been taught by prophets since adam (where do you think we get our Hero Cycle Complex that shows up in about every culture that had the ability to pass on stories?).
2. there is a reason why Christ as a spirit visited the spirits in prison between his crucifixion and his resurrection.
3. God is just trust him, even if the bible doesnt give a decent explanation.