Hell

[standing_on_one_foot]

To me it shows the mercy of God, as without Jesus taking our sins upon Himself and dieing on the cross I would be condemned to the eternal fires of hell.

Maybe some of both? Fear and gratitude, I mean. Fear as in, you aren't good, you aren't Christian, you're going to suffer eternally! Gratitude as in, gee, I'm glad I don't have to suffer eternally, thanks God! They kinda go together...

Hmm...here's an interesting Jewish parable I came across that says that heaven and hell are identical. Everyone sitting at a big feast. The only weird thing is, nobody's elbows can bend. In hell, everyone's hungry, despite all the food close at hand, because no matter how hard they try, they can't feed themselves. But in heaven, no one's hungry; everyone feeds each other. Doesn't really have much to do with traditional images of either place, but I liked the idea.

 

[destined]

definition of eternal at dictionary.com

Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless. See Synonyms at continual.
Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

emphasis mine.

I don't want to be mean, but if you are going to get into a disscussion like this you should use a little more than a dictionary. Like try a strongs concordance. And don't stop there. Find out where the word began and ALL OF THE POSSIBLE MEANINGS.

Also the definintion above "without begining or end" is exactly what I was saying when I said that eternity is like a circle... in a circle it is always the alpha(begining) and always the end (omega) ..... thus if that circle of eternity was cut you would have a time line and that length of time would be called 1 eternity.

Thank You.

 

[destined]

life on earth is not 'like' hell........

it is the biblical representation of what hell is.

hell is "this pit" "this grave" "this prison for gods" (hades = hell)

we are in hell, now go read you bible with that new info it will blow your mind if you could only imagine it as a possibility.

the bible says that all have sin and fallen short of the glory of God.

So..... how have all sin???? what if you don't sin, have you still sin???

Something happened before this world...something big, the bible talks about it but you have to read it more than once a year. Dig in, dig in, dig in....don't let the time pass you by there is too much at stake and too much to be done. YOU MUST FULFILL YOUR DESTINY.

AWAKE O' SLEEPER FROM YOUR SLUMBER

 

[Mister Emu]

Like try a strongs concordance. And don't stop there. Find out where the word began and ALL OF THE POSSIBLE MEANINGS

Lets take Mat. 18:8

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire

the greek word that was translated to everlasting is

aionios

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

from the the root

aion

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

from

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1095774600-1547.html

also, from

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

Aionios means

ageless, eternal, timeless, unending

Aionios is translated 71 times in the bible(KJV)

eternal (42), everlasting (25), the world began + 5550 (2), since the world began + 5550 (1), for ever (1); (71)

it is the biblical representation of what hell is.

No the biblical hell is a lake of fire.

we are in hell, now go read you bible with that new info it will blow your mind if you could only imagine it as a possibility

No, we are not in hell, there is no new info, sorry. If you are going to say something at least back it up.

So..... how have all sin???? what if you don't sin, have you still sin???

We all have sin, we are born with it, you can not be sinless, there was only one being that came out of a woman that was sinless, Jesus.

Something happened before this world...something big, the bible talks about it but you have to read it more than once a year.

You know what assuming does, don't you? With that I read parts of the Bible every day.

AWAKE O' SLEEPER FROM YOUR SLUMBER

I am fully awake.

 

[seraphimfire]

First off the words used in the King James Bible to tranlate "age or ages"
is usually eternal,forever, forever and ever etc. Aonian times are more like a set amount of time age during or age to age etc.
To all you who think that our Creator Father God is allowing billions of his children to suffer torments in some "Dante's hell" for eternity with out end I feel sorry for you and your interpretation of the Word is really not who I know God to be! As for this forum and the debateing rules you all follow I'm sorry if I am not that good at men's rules.Oh well this is all very interesting and i'm glad that people have a place to come in and read, study and maybe search out all this for themselves in the various traslations of the Bible!
Some of you don't belive the Bible to be the word of God or even a true book,
well that is the starting point of these disscusions and I for one see the Bible as the only "True" record we have of the "Path " to God. There is only one problem, you must "know" the writer of the Bible to "see" through the veil that is over the words themselves! You see it is locked to an extent and we don't even have words to define most of the consepts in the Bible! The word Spirit in English is what we use to tranlate wind,breath etc from ruach and nephesh!?? We are reading about realities that only the Holy God can reveal to us! Doctrine and Dogma are not God! only His Holy Spirit(Life,Mind,Will)
can show us the Truth. Oh well I wil shut up for now and hope that we all will see more clearly.

 

[Mister Emu]

your interpretation of the Word is really not who I know God to be!

No interpretation involved, it is the literal divine word of God. If God did not sentance the sinners, He would not be All-Just which I know Him to be.

you must "know" the writer of the Bible to "see" through the veil that is over the words themselves

There is no veil over the words of God, they are a shining truth in a time of darkness.

Doctrine and Dogma are not God!

I know, such as the doctrine that there is no hell, the Bible specifically speaks of it many times, There is a lake of fire, and sinners will be thrown in it. That is the word of God.

 

[destined]

Lets take Mat. 18:8



the greek word that was translated to everlasting is

aionios

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

from the the root

aion

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

from

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1095774600-1547.html

also, from

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

Aionios means

ageless, eternal, timeless, unending

Aionios is translated 71 times in the bible(KJV)

eternal (42), everlasting (25), the world began + 5550 (2), since the world began + 5550 (1), for ever (1); (71)

First of all don't get sarcastic with me, I can back up what I say more that you can.

Secondly, if you would read in your own posts one of the possible definitions of eternal is "since the world began" how can you tell me that what I have previously posted can't be backed up???

Another Definition that YOU YOURSELF POSTED ABOVE is, AND I QUOTE
"PERIOD OF TIME, AGE" It is quite obviouse that the word eternity, (or age) can most definatly be refering to a certain time frame.

Otherwise what are we to do with verses that use terms like "for ever and ever" How long is two forevers??? It is easy to see that forever is not exactly infinite. Oh yeah, and I can back this up also...

Two forevers = One Eternity

if you need the proof, just let me know.


ALSO PLEASE REALIZE THAT OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHO GOD IS DOES CHANGE, HAS CHANGED, AND WILL CONTINUE TO CHANGE.

THE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE AN OPEN MIND TO GODS ENDLESS POSIBILITIES WILL BE LEFT PONDERING HOW FLAT THE EARTH IS AND WHY THE UNIVERSE REVOLVES AROUND US.

 

[destined]

[Quote/Mr. Emu]
No the biblical hell is a lake of fire.



No, we are not in hell, there is no new info, sorry. If you are going to say something at least back it up.



We all have sin, we are born with it, you can not be sinless, there was only one being that came out of a woman that was sinless, Jesus.



You know what assuming does, don't you? With that I read parts of the Bible every day.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I couldn't help but notice you typical "christian" response to the "sin" issue. Obviously you belive in original sin. First of all, this was a concept that did not exist until the catholic church, and most notably St. Augustine.

Secondly the concept of "original sin" (as reported by the church, and systematic theology) is extremely flawed. For instance here is a good quote from the Bible.

Ezekiel 18


The Soul Who Sins Will Die

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
or lie with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest. [1]
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD .

10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things [2] 11 (though the father has done none of them):

"He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor's wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.

Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.
14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife.
16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from sin [3]
and takes no usury or excessive interest.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.
19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD . Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent and live!


now i know this is lengthly, but it is abundantly clear by this passage that the "sins" of the father are not passed down to the son. Also it is a little weird that Adam sin (which it actually says that he didn't sin in 2 Timothy) and because of that sin you and I have to pay for it??? So both Biblically, and Logically the idea of "original sin" does not hold water... Now this may be sacary to those of you who know the implications of such ideas... when you question original sin you have in a sense questioned all of christian theology and this will send a title wave through our understanding and the dogma of the church... I belive in the Bible 100%, but we must learn how to "rightly divide the word of God" (quote from the bible).

So, I will still stand that something happend before this world, there is more that ample proof of this biblically, in fact the first words of Genisis state that the "matter had lost it's form and was in ruins" (you might not read this in an english bible, you would have to read the Hebrew to understand that translation that i just quoted, just in case you might think that I was changing the Bible, I know that is against the rules).
So if the matter had lost it's form and was in ruins, then it most definatly had a form and this (although not conclusive on just this one verse) can show that there was something going on before our world was ever created. Hell, even the bible states that the Lord knew us before we were in our mothers womb. We might what to figure out where he knew us, why he knew us, and what in the hell (pardon my pun) are we doing here?

thanks.

 

[Druidus]

I don't see how "hell" fits in with Christianity anyway. "God" is supposed to be a kind, merciful, loving God. However, allowing someone to be tortured for all eternity is far more cruel, hateful and unmerciful then I could ever be, no matter how disobedient my "underlings" had been.

 

[Mister Emu]

First of all don't get sarcastic with me

I wasn't being sarcastic. You asked me to goto a concordance, and other sources which I did. I follow your advice and I am sarcastic...

possible definitions of eternal is "since the world began"

One possible translation within a context.

Another Definition that YOU YOURSELF POSTED ABOVE is, AND I QUOTE
"PERIOD OF TIME, AGE"

That was of the root word not of the actual word translated.

Two forevers = One Eternity

if you need the proof, just let me know.

Yes, I would like very much for you to put forth your proof.

Obviously you belive in original sin.

Actually I don't know if I believe in original sin. I believe that what Adam passed down was the knowledge of good and evil. The ability sin comes with that. I believe that we all Sin, not sure because we are born with it as much as we cannot escape doing it.

So, I will still stand that something happend before this world, there is more that ample proof of this biblically, in fact the first words of Genisis state that the "matter had lost it's form and was in ruins"

Not trying to be an a-hole if I seem it, but can you show me any churches, or Jewish organizations(I'm not sure what the word would be sorry) that translate it as such.

Hell, even the bible states that the Lord knew us before we were in our mothers womb. We might what to figure out where he knew us, why he knew us,

Consider the following;

1) He creates our Souls, whenever I make something I know what it is and what it will do.

2) He not held by time, He is in past present and future all at once, thus He would know us before we are born.

I don't see how "hell" fits in with Christianity anyway. "God" is supposed to be a kind, merciful, loving God. However, allowing someone to be tortured for all eternity is far more cruel, hateful and unmerciful then I could ever be, no matter how disobedient my "underlings" had been.

Everybody says kind loving and merciful and leave out just. God is merciful, no matter how sinful you are He will welcome you with open arms. He is all loving, He always cares for you and wants you to come back. He is also just, if you do not repent you will be sentenced to a lake of fire. Now if that is for eternity or for an eternity is obviously debatable

 

[Green Gaia]

Could "hell" simply be a metaphor for a mental or emotional state and not an actual place at all? That seems to me a more compatible answer to a loving God than a fiery pit into which people are thrown. But that's just me...

 

[Mister Emu]

The bible speaks many times of a lake of fire, or a place where the fire dies not.

 

[Green Gaia]

Yes, but could that not be the metaphor? I don't understand the jump to conclude this place actually exists.

 

[Mister Emu]

Me = Literalist

Therefore Hell exists

 

[Green Gaia]

Ah, well then, we won't get too far on this conversation, my friend. lol

p.s. Would you consider starting a thread either in this forum or Same Faith debates on why the Bible should be read literally? Just a thought...

 

[Sunstone]

Could "hell" simply be a metaphor for a mental or emotional state and not an actual place at all? That seems to me a more compatible answer to a loving God than a fiery pit into which people are thrown. But that's just me...

It's not just you, Maize! I agree with you that Hell is most likely a metaphor for a mental or emotional state. I think the inspiration for the notion of Hell comes from people trying to describe how it feels when one is mentally and/or emotionally ill. For instance: Possession by demons is a poetically apt description of pyschosis.

 

[Melody]

I've said before that I don't believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible and there is some evidence that there was a bit of politicking both in the writing of the Bible and in the many translations since. So I have some doubts as to whether an actual "fiery hell" exists.

It says in the Bible that you will be "written out of the Book of Life" so perhaps hell is being forbidden access to God and simply cease to exist.

 

[Sunstone]

It says in the Bible that you will be "written out of the Book of Life" so perhaps hell is being forbidden access to God and simply cease to exist.

Augustine somewhere says something quite similar: He describes Hell as the absence of the presence of God.

 

[seraphimfire]

Mr Emu;
The word Hell comes from and old English word that means to hide something away out of sight! The translators of the 1611 Bible used it as the only word to translate Sheol,Tartarus,Gehenna and Hades! All these words actually in context mean different places! As for the "Lake Of Fire" we must see this in the language of prophesy that John used in the Revelation of Jesus Christ! Daniel used the same prophetic language to discribe certain things to us all! This lake is in the Spirit and is symbolic of the flesh nature being burned up and the true purified mankind will emerge from it! Again Our God is a consumeing fire! To what purpose does it benifit God to create billions of men and women just to torture them in a place like "Dante's hell" endlessly???? There is a punishment that brings correction and I would not enjoy even a nanosecond in a place of judgement that I could not change my life around and except His corrections here on earth! Do you think God is that impotant that He can not save to the uttermost??? You limit Father God in your imagination,cast it down!

 

[Mister Emu]

I know the root of the english word Hell.

All I know from the Bible is, that there is a place described as a lake of fire, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

we must see this in the language of prophesy that John used in the Revelation of Jesus Christ!

Matthew and Mark also speak of the lake of fire, not just John in the Revelation.

The Bible also says in Revelation that the lake of fire is "where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

emphasis mine.

It says in the Bible that you will be "written out of the Book of Life" so perhaps hell is being forbidden access to God and simply cease to exist.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:15

I understand that you do not take the bible literally, that is your right, I for one do.