You are my favorite.What savagewind said!
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Hello everyone. Glad to be here.
- Thread starter MansFriend
- Start date
Thanks! I also appreciate you smoothing things over after my poor greeting. Its really appreciated.
Although, I do not think you do "poor". Mind you, it is my birthday today and people gave me alcohol and I drank it. Also, you should know, that if I wasn't a stickler for perfection, my posts would be illegible or....more so than they are.
Haha. i AM THINKNG i HAVE TO TELL THE BRains (oh shgit) what is funny. For a second, now, I forget, what is funny (I know something is). I might have to get back to about that.
MansFriend
Let's champion the rights of all individuals!
If I sense genius behind someone's heckling I get more and more patient.
I understand that some people express their genius most effectively that way.
I'll take all kinds of heckling if there is some good nuggets of wisdom embedded in it.
It's when people who are ignorant or thoughtless who heckle me that I get exasperated.
It is when people who are ignorant or thoughtless speak (communicate, actually) that seem to heckle at me that I get a reconsideration which keeps me in perspective of the realness.
Probably, I should say. it is when people who are ignorant (we are all very ignorant of some things) or thoughtless (nobody on the forum is that, Praise be to GOD), heckle, it is for patience and in turn wisdom.
I might say for sure that patience is before wisdom. Agree?
By the way, if I might say, Brick is not one who heckles. I have never, ever seen him heckle.
MansFriend is a good handle imo. A friend of man. Might you elaborate on that choice?
MansFriend
Let's champion the rights of all individuals!
In the Bible we learn that "man" is created on the 6th Day of Creation.
This is also when Adam is Created in the image and likeness of God.
So, one of Adam's names is Man or Man of Holiness.
By saying I am Man's Friend I am saying I am a friend to divinity and humanity at the same time.
Do you believe that the story in genesis about the God creating the earth in 7 days is literal or is there a better way of understanding it?
MansFriend
Let's champion the rights of all individuals!
I believe what it says in Genesis 2:4 where upon completing the description of all of the things in the 7 days it says:
"These are the generations..."
What I take this to mean is everything previously depicted has a symbolic representation that actually pertains to people.
So, for example, you can take the "greater light to rule the day" created in Day 4 as a person of some kind, not an actual sun.
Also, what happens in each Day is significant as well. The Bible says "a day unto the Lord is as a thousand years with men".
This means that one whole cycle of Creation is a period of 7,000 years before it comes to a complete end.
Day 1 is the first thousand years, Day 2 is the second thousand years, and so on to the 7th Day being the Millennium.
This is why we are said by many to be in the "end times" or the "last days" or "latter days" right now.
We are approaching the end of this Creation and entering its last Day if you consider a full 6,000+ years since Adam.
So, what special person who lived in the 4th millennia since the beginning referred to himself as the light and life of the world?
Thus, you can look at the Creation account as a master blueprint for what is fore-ordained to take place in it.
Therefore, by looking at in this way, the Creation account can in fact be understood to be prophecy rather than just history.
Of course, it is also history as well because as one Creation comes to an end, a new heavens and a new earth are Created.
The cycles repeat over and over in a similar pattern so our history is also our future, so long as God is doing his "thing".
So, things just go in cycles where we have one Creation after another and so on and so on.
This is why in the actual history of this planet we can see the rise and fall of high civilization, etc.
This is also why the same pattern and narrative of Christianity is repeated in past cultures.
It's kind of like a special format or pattern to bring in a high order of society with high technology, etc.
MansFriend
Let's champion the rights of all individuals!
Man or Adam coming at the tail end of a Creation means He is there to lay the foundation for the new Creation to follow.
Adam and Son of Man (Son of Adam) are the Father and the Son in the beginning when the foundations were laid.
These are who are spoken of by John's Gospel and John the Revelator when talking about Michael and God's Christ.
Adam and Son of Man (Son of Adam) are the Father and the Son in the beginning when the foundations were laid.
These are who are spoken of by John's Gospel and John the Revelator when talking about Michael and God's Christ.
I like your thinking. I'm Adrian btw.
You are interested in biblical prophecy. I find Daniel 9:24-27 an important key to making sense of apocalyptic scripture. Are these verses you have reflected on?
I set up a couple of threads some time ago to explore them.
Seventy weeks (490) in Daniel 9:24-27
Abomination of Desolation
MansFriend
Let's champion the rights of all individuals!
I have not yet made a close examination of these particular verses, but I did just read them and I am having some ideas I am contemplating. I'll get back to you if anything noteworthy comes to mind. Thanks!I like your thinking. I'm Adrian btw.
You are interested in biblical prophecy. I find Daniel 9:24-27 an important key to making sense of apocalyptic scripture. Are these verses you have reflected on?
I set up a couple of threads some time ago to explore them.
Seventy weeks (490) in Daniel 9:24-27
Abomination of Desolation
Also, I was just going to add, Daniel 12 and Revelation 12 seem to be linked. Have you noticed this?
Could I please ask you to explain the bolded and underlined parts of your post please?
What earlier doctrines, laws and practices are you referring to?
What things need to 'get back on track with what were originally intended to be'?
Can you explain what you mean by "if the Saints would have loved the truths they were being given instead of reverting back to the traditions of the father and precepts of men"?
Thank you.
MansFriend
Let's champion the rights of all individuals!
Yes, you can definitely ask.
In Mormonism there is a concept of differing kingdoms of glory in the heavenly realms. There is the Telestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom and the Celestial Kingdom. What differentiates these kingdoms is the laws that all members of that society are agreed upon, if any at all.
The lowest is where its more of a "dog eat dog" system where might makes right. This is like a pure democracy. Whatever the majority can get away with, their might makes right. It's the second to worst form of government because it inevitably leads to the worst form of government, which is complete tyranny under a police state full of corruption and hypocrisy.
The highest kingdom is where things get more involved. It may seem a bit of an irony, but the laws that this kingdom has are all centered around that which fosters, to the greatest extent practicable, the individual sovereignty of all participants in that society, including the interests of the unborn. It is a system of law precision engineered to maximize the entire collective's member's individual liberties. True freedom is its core giving rise to laws that befriend individual liberty and justice for all. Such a government has a series of unalienable rights that should not be infringed upon for any reasons, except to provide due process and redress for actual crimes involving a victim, where the victim receives just restitution. Thus, it is governed by a clear written compact offering the guarantee for the protection of individual liberty and limiting the government such that it does not become abusive of any powers the people grant it.
This is very much like the Constitutional Republic the Founding Fathers of the United states of America were inspired to establish in the "new world". The Federal government of the USA was NOT a democracy. This "make the world safe for democracy" notion didn't start getting injected into things until about the turn of the century in the early 1900's. It was a coordinated part of the world war deceptions and delusions. The real aim of this notion was to "put the world on a pathway to tyranny". This happens by dumbing down people to forget their true history and get them to ignorantly betray the system of law to uphold individual liberty and open the door to a system of government that usurps the people and takes on a self-preservationist life of its own.
The change that can be observed in the USA is also representative of the changes that have happened in Mormonism. It started out as a system designed to maximize individual sovereignty but it has become a system that has moved very far from its core foundation. And, no genuine efforts have been made to properly ratify the changes made in the founding and constitutional documents. Things have just shifted over to a system where the rulers now make the rules as they go and there really isn't a mechanism to hold them accountable to the original Constitution/oracles.
But, perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself...
Think of a kingdom of glory as a group of souls entering into a contractual agreement because they wish for the society in which they participate in their life experience here on the earth to be a certain way. Or, perhaps some will want an absence of laws, realizing that they could victimize or be a victim. So, you have varying classes of souls that have a vested interest in things going a certain way in certain regions of the planet. More or less, this is the whole summation of the Abrahamic faiths. Many different religious societies have been spawned from this one grand patriarch. It has provided a core "operating system" capable or running several different "applications". Each application has its unique variations, but each represents a kingdom. Islam is a kingdom distinct from Judaism or Christianity or Mormonism. They are all distinct kingdoms because they each have their own laws and statutes.
Basically, because all of these souls are in unanimous agreement about what they can and should expect from one another, they work together to establish this kind of society on earth. So, that was being attempted with early Mormonism was to build on top of the firm foundation that was already established through the government of the USA and the several states.
There was a political component to Mormonism as well. Only in its case it was to be the highest level of kingdom that we call the Celestial Kingdom or the Father's Kingdom. This is the Kingdom that the Gospel was oriented to draw people's hearts and minds to look forward to coming in the future. A literal kingdom in the "world to come" or the "new world". The Mormons headed out west to unorganized territories and had an opportunity to establish this Kingdom. They were given all of the keys and the authority to do it, but because of internal strife and failure and because of persecution from outside forces, the new Adam (Priesthood) and Eve (Church) of the "new world" succumbed to transgression and fell and were driven out. Very few know that Joseph Smith Jr. taught that Jackson County Missouri was in fact the new Garden of Eden for the new Creation now having its foundations laid. Sadly, it has become just another repeat of "Paradise Lost". The much longed for goal of Christianity was pretty much sabotaged and fought against by Christianity. They fought the very thing they were supposedly looking forward to.
Very few people know what Mormonism was actually supposed to be because pretty much all of its Celestial Laws and Doctrines are poorly understood at best and for the most part are looked upon with shame and contempt by today's Mormon. Now days if a Mormon cozies up too much with our fundamentalist roots you are branded a heretic and excommunicated, which is an extremely serious punishment when its full ramifications are considered. Is all most people heard about it was the wild slander and grossly exaggerated and twisted reports deigned to incite the people's hatred against it rather than to apply sound and objective discernment and judgment. The adversary raged against it and deceived many Christians to fight against it. They still really have little understanding of what they participated in derailing.
What was being accomplished through Joseph Smith Jr. as the Prophet is God the Father was endeavoring to literally establish His Kingdom with all of its laws and statutes to raise the individual liberty factor to an even higher degree than the Constitution of the United states of America had accomplished. It was also intended to accomplish spiritual liberty as well as civic liberty. This means it is a system of spiritual governance that is welcoming of a pluralistic religious society as well, so long as the civic components are honored by all of the religious sects. It's sole intent was to make a restoration of all of the provisions of Law of God for His Kingdom to co-exist in the modern day society. Force and coercion were to have no place whatever, except in the safeguarding of people's lives, liberty and property against unjust or unwarranted aggression.
While some people try to make a big deal out of the marriage laws of the Celestial Order, they aren't the most important factor. But, yes, the Mormons do catch a lot of flack over the polygamy aspect to things. I think if I try to go into too much detail on this it would be rather boring so I'll forebear. And, besides, this provision of law only would be applicable to very few people. For those few who did need it, it is extremely important, but it isn't one of the more critical aspects of things.
What stands out to me as one of the most beneficial things that would have come of the Celestial Kingdom is its economic system. While it isn't an extremely complex system, it is one that people seem to have a difficult time understanding. In short, there would be incentive for everyone participating to build up what is called their "inheritance" after they have been "tithed". This is what Jesus referred to as laying up treasures in heaven and is what the Mormons call the Law of Consecration. In this system, which in the early times was called a United Order, when someone would join, they would figure up their entire net worth and pay a tithe of all that they owned and then on a yearly basis they would figure out their increase of their net worth and they would tithe again on just the increase. This is the annual tithing settlement. In addition to being tithed, if they had more wealth than they needed they would "consecrate" it as "surplus property". These funds would go into a "common fund" and the person would have this accounted to their individual inheritance, which was redeemable. This means that there money wasn't really being taken from them because if they ever needed it they could "redeem" it. What they were doing, however, is giving those less fortunate than them "use" of this surplus wealth that they would get in the form of a loan out of the common fund. And, there is no fee for the use of such funds because usury, in all of its forms, are a violation of the principle of liberty. Allowing one party to charge another party usury goes against the principle of keeping all people equal in the eyes of the law and having a fair opportunity to pursue their own happiness. Therefore, this system of economic government nullifies the worst defects of both Capitalism and Socialism. It takes usury away from Capitalism, which is how the wealthy grind upon the less fortunate, and it takes taxation and doles away from Socialism. It makes resources readily available to those in need, but it holds them accountable for paying them back if they ever hope to build up their own inheritance. And, there is significance to a person's inheritance for not just this life, but also in the resurrection in the world to come. When people say "you can't take it with you" this is actually not the case. When you lay up your treasures in heaven, they become sealed to your eternal soul and your wealth will follow you as you continue in your eternal life experience going from world to world to world in the eternal cycles of Creation.
I could go into quite a bit more detail on the many ways things have become distorted and diluted from the Celestial foundation Mormonism was originally placed on and the woes and problems being experienced today because of having departed from them, but really these should be dedicated discussion threads.
If anything in this light into interests you, please start a new thread and invite me to answer your questions there.
I have just noticed your post. It probably helps to reply to my post then an alert comes up.
Both chapters concern the second coming of the Christ with the signs that will herald the new age, and the conditions of the world and the trials and tribulations as His revelation is brought into the world. He will bring forward an age of everlasting peace. As with the advent of Jesus there will be those who follow Him and assist His cause reaching the loftiest station, and being a light to many. Then there will be those who oppose His Cause.
In Daniel 12 verses 7, 11, and 12 there are references to the numbers 1260, 2300, and 1335. These are time periods in years that relate to His return. However before understanding how these numbers relate to Christ, it will be important to study Daniel 9:24-27 to understand how the number 490 relates to Jesus.
I have a lot to say about revelations but it will be easiest to understand once it is clear what prophecies in the Old Testament Jesus did or did not fulfil.
Another thread I set up to examine prophecies of Isaiah that relate to the Christ or His second coming was this one:
The Messianic verses of Isaiah
You need to have a sense of humour on RF as I didn't exactly have the kind of conversations I was hoping for! On the other hand it a great challenge learning to get on with so many people with such different beliefs.
Thank you for that very detailed explanation. I appreciate your efforts. Would I be right in assuming that your prophet Joseph Smith was the one through whom this scenario was postulated? I can find no reference to any of these things in the scripture that Jesus taught from (OT) nor can I find reference to any of it in the NT.
For the majority of those who classify themselves as "Christians", there is no acceptance of the writings of Joseph Smith at all except by those who believe that He was visited by an angel and given extra-Biblical instruction. Does that create problems when there appears to be no way to validate his writings except on faith that his 'visitor' was in fact not a figment of his imagination or from some other source? (Galatians 1:8 2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
The apostle Paul indicated that our last prophet was in fact Jesus himself. So we really have have no need of any others, (Hebrews 1:1-4) especially when they lead us in a completely different direction and concentrate primarily on one nation and tribes of people that no one has ever heard of and for whom there is no proof of their existence.
After Israel dispersed from their homeland, God's people thereafter had no nation. As citizens of God's kingdom, Christians can't pledge allegiance to any earthly government. As "ambassadors for Christ" they must remain politically neutral. (2 Corinthians 5:20)
Would I be able to find this 'three kingdom' scenario outlined in the Bible if Joseph Smith had not written the BoM?
Would I also be right in assuming that Mormons can weave the theme of these 'three kingdoms' vaguely into Biblical scripture?
The basic problem with most religions, as I see it, particularly ones that claim to teach about Jesus Christ, is the basic belief in the existence of the human soul, that can exist outside of a body. This belief is not Biblical and never was. Jewish scripture does not teach that humans "have" a soul that can exist apart from the body. The Hebrew Scriptures teach that a body with spirit (breath) IS a "soul". Human souls, in the Bible, were always living, breathing, material beings. Yet this belief of life outside the physical body, permeates almost all religions....especially in paganism. It was entirely missing from the Hebrew scriptures. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
The second problem I see in your explanation is the inclusion of earthly kingdoms in God's rulership of his 'people'. When Jesus said that his kingdom was "no part of this world" (John 18:36) and that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" (1 John 5:19) whom Paul identified as "the God of this world", (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4) I find it difficult to see anything in the rulership of this world as originating with God. In fact I see God actively eliminating all human rulership from existence when he brings his kingdom rule to the earth. (Daniel 2:44) What the world does is none of our business IMO.
Also, tithing was a Jewish requirement, not incumbent on Christians. (2 Corinthians 9:7) There was no temple or earthly priesthood in 1st century Christianity. (Hebrews 9:11, 12, 24)
There are many other things that I see as conflicting with Bible teachings. To me, if something is in opposition to Christian teachings (from either Christ himself or any of those used to pen scripture) then that rings alarm bells for me......but to each his own.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you. Welcome.