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Hello my Hindu friends

MD

qualiaphile
Namaste.

I have a few questions and concepts about Hinduism I was hoping ya'll can can answer.

The first one deals with evil. Does Hinduism believe evil is real, or is it an illusion? Is it a metaphysical force or is it part of Brahman expressing itself in different forms?

Also does a concept like free will exist in Hinduism? How is free will possible if Brahman is omnipotent and omniscient?

I know Hinduism is a vast and diverse faith, but a general consensus on these topics would be great. Thanks so much.
 

User14

Member
I believe that evil is real in the sense that it is a deprivation of good. Yet I believe that our perception of the amount or degree of evil we see around us is something of an illusion. But I need to stress that this is my own personal belief and is based mostly on my own contemplation rather than on anything I've read, Hindu or otherwise.

I also lean more towards determinism than belief in true free will, but I do not think that is the view typical of most Hindus. I think that for a lot of Hindus, a concept similar to free will is essential for their theory of karma.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The first one deals with evil. Does Hinduism believe evil is real, or is it an illusion?
All things have their relative reality but ultimately all but Brahman is illusion. But very few experience from the place of ultimate reality. And in that place of ultimate reality there is only Brahman.
Is it a metaphysical force or is it part of Brahman expressing itself in different forms?
It is a temporarily limited form of Brahman (like us) caught in illusion pursuing that which leads to separation; i.e. greed, power, hate, self-centeredness, that creates what we call evil.
Also does a concept like free will exist in Hinduism? How is free will possible if Brahman is omnipotent and omniscient?
It depends on how you look at it. We have free will relative to the reality we are experiencing. But ultimately Brahman alone is real and has the only free will, but then actually we are that Brahman.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
If there was consensus, it would no longer be Hinduism :D :D :D

True that haah

I'll give you the view of my school (Gaudiya Vaishnavism). Its prob very similiar to the other Vaishnav schools.

Does Hinduism believe evil is real, or is it an illusion? Is it a metaphysical force or is it part of Brahman expressing itself in different forms?

Evil is real. Evil is ignorance of God and all the activities committed in that ignorance are sinful. We, the living entities are called Jivas, and God is called Parambrahman (the Supreme Brahman). All Jivas are eternal servants of God, but when we choose to enjoy independently of Him we turn our back to Him and this seed of ignorance is planted in our hearts. As a result of this, we fall into Maya and become trapped in the cycle of birth and death which is brought forth by our own Karma. All suffering is caused by attachment to false ego (the idea that this is my body, my pain, mine, i.e the conception that we are the enjoyers, when Lord Vasudeva (God) is the only enjoyer). This is concisely put in one of our scriptures, Jaiva Dharma:

"You may ask, "What is the origin of sin?" My answer is as follows.Vidya (knowledge) is the understanding that the jivas are servants of Bhagavan (God), and avidya (ignorance) is forgetfulness of this. All jivas who, for whatever reason, take shelter of avidya sow the seed of all sins in their hearts. In the hearts of those jivas who are eternal associates of Bhagavan, there is no seed of sin.

Also does a concept like free will exist in Hinduism? How is free will possible if Brahman is omnipotent and omniscient?

Free will does exist, but not in the extent that the Abhrahamic religions believe it to be. Its quite a complex topic but I'll try to simplify it. Originally when the Jivas were manifest (not created) in the beginning of creation, we had completely free will. The Jivas being formed from the region between the spiritual and material world was given a choice, to either be dependent on God or independent of Him. At this moment our will was completely "free". However once we fell into this cycle of birth and death (Samsara) our will became heavily restricted. Currently we are heavily conditioned by our previous impressions of experiences (called Samskaras), our current body (determined by our Karma) and this determines our personality, our inclinations, our tendencies to favour certain choices over others. So our will is not completely "free" in one sense. This is know as the vicious cycle of Karma as explained below:

"Sinful actions (paapa) result in either prarabdha (immediately suffering and instantly manifest reaction for the sin) and/or apraarabdha (unmanifested reaction which will fructify later on in this life or previous lives into the corresponding suffering) or it may lead to both which is also common. Apraabdha again leads to either of the below two reactions or both at a later stage (after a few hours, months or years or in the next life or lives) : praaradha (delayed suffering for the original sinful action paapa) and/or kuta (spontaneous inclination to commit sinful activities with no other cause).
Kuta (propensity to sin) leads to the strengthening and full formation of Bija (sinful desire) which in turns again leads to sinful actions or paapa and this vikarma cycle goes on perpetually life after life.

However, the living entities still have will in that they can choose against their tendencies. Nature is not entirely deterministic, because it is consciousness itself that lends variability in interpretation. Let us say that we make an identical copy of me, put us both in the same environment and give us the same choice. When both our consciousness' interact with the stimulus (i.e the interpretation stage) desires arise and we act upon the desire that is of the greatest strength. However according to us, when my copy and I both interact with the stimulus, due to the unpredictable nature of consciousness (i.e different interpretation) different desires may arise and hence we may make different choices in that situation (though it is highly unlikely). So while there is will, and it is free in one way (due to the unpredictable interpretation), it is heavily conditioned in another.

tldr: basically we had completely free will in the beginning. Now, our will is not deterministic, but it is not completely free either (it is dependent on our previous karma).

ow is free will possible if Brahman is omnipotent and omniscient?

Due to the way sin is defined, an omnipotent and omniscient Brahman is compatible with free will. Since sin is independence and ignorance from God, where there is one choice (choosing to be with God), by default the other choice arises (choosing not to be with God, i.e sin). The recognition of one choice, automatically brings about recognition of another choice. An Omnipotent God cannot create a scenario where only the good choice remains (staying with God), because the good choice by default brings about the bad one. To do so, would be an logical contradiction. In order for the Jiva's will to be completely free, she must be able to choose whatever is available for her. Hence we can apply the free will objection here quite easily.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I personally don't believe in intrinsic evil, or pure evil. The closest probably is anava, or ignorance. The young souls, because they're young, and not that smart, can commit selfish acts, but it's not evil, just immaturity or stupidity.

I absolutely believe in free will.

As Aup said, I doubt there is consensus.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"You may ask, "What is the origin of sin?" .. and avidya (ignorance)
Important. Whatever philosophy one follows in Hinduism, evil is because of 'avidya' (ignorance, not knowing or disregarding consequences - one would disregard only when one is ignorant).

Vinayaka, is there consensus on this? :)
 
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GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Also does a concept like free will exist in Hinduism? How is free will possible if Brahman is omnipotent and omniscient?
Causation is a difficult point. If it is too strong, how can release from rebirth be attained? If it is too weak, how can karma take effect? In either case, how can we steer a course? But, of course, such questions are of interest to philosophers, not worshipers. Indian philosophy has examined every possible answer, though!

As for Brahman, one must not confuse him with the God of the Christians: the cosmos is a product of joyful creation, like a happy person bursting into song, not some rigid, pre-planned system in which we all have assigned roles.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Important. Whatever philosophy one follows in Hinduism, evil is because of 'avidya' (ignorance, not knowing or disregarding consequences - one would disregard only when one is ignorant).

Vinayaka, is there consensus on this? :)


Yes, I think most Hindus would agree. Anava is often replaced with avidya, or so I read. So basically synonyms.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
"MD"

Namaste,

I have a few questions and concepts about Hinduism I was hoping ya'll can can answer.

I will provide my opinion on these questions.

The first one deals with evil. Does Hinduism believe evil is real, or is it an illusion? Is it a metaphysical force or is it part of Brahman expressing itself in different forms?

I am with those that have said that there is not a concept of "evil", in the Abrahamic sense, the Maya of Avidya (ignorance) is what conceals our true nature (as Sat-Cht-Annand), and therefore we experience Dukha (pain, bondage, suffering, lacking) in life. The remedy is Vidya (Knowledge), which once gained provides Moksha (freedom from) Dukha. It is Avidya that causes what some term as "evil", but Maya is a power within this Brahman (so i have been told by the Advaitins), and it is self realization which reveals our true essential nature which is Truth, Goodness and Beauty.

As i tend not to call this reality Brahman, as i find myself aligning more with Sankhya, I would say even in Sankhya the misunderstanding of our (Purusha) relationship with this transitory world (Prakriti) causes Dukha, again it is the Vidya of our self as being Purusha and distinct from Prakriti that provides Mokhas from Dukha.

Also does a concept like free will exist in Hinduism? How is free will possible if Brahman is omnipotent and omniscient?

We are only limited in what we have freedom to do, the important discussion in Hinduism has not been free will (of free to do) but more Karma, where we are free to a certain degree to act, some actions are natural and unconscious and some are consciously made, unlike free will, in Karma the consequences of our actions in the past determine our attitude and actions of the future, but at every moment of our lives we are still free to do a act, but the restraints in our freedom are caused by the consequences of our previous actions, so Karma is a mix of free will and determinism.

As for Brahman, it is Brahman that is performing the actions in Brahman, and the consequences are received by Brahman, so no question of how free will is possible.

Hope this helps
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I want to clarify some things.
Evil is real. Evil is ignorance of God and all the activities committed in that ignorance are sinful. We, the living entities are called Jivas, and God is called Parambrahman (the Supreme Brahman). All Jivas are eternal servants of God, but when we choose to enjoy independently of Him we turn our back to Him and this seed of ignorance is planted in our hearts. As a result of this, we fall into Maya and become trapped in the cycle of birth and death which is brought forth by our own Karma. All suffering is caused by attachment to false ego (the idea that this is my body, my pain, mine, i.e the conception that we are the enjoyers, when Lord Vasudeva (God) is the only enjoyer). This is concisely put in one of our scriptures, Jaiva Dharma:

"You may ask, "What is the origin of sin?" My answer is as follows.Vidya (knowledge) is the understanding that the jivas are servants of Bhagavan (God), and avidya (ignorance) is forgetfulness of this. All jivas who, for whatever reason, take shelter of avidya sow the seed of all sins in their hearts. In the hearts of those jivas who are eternal associates of Bhagavan, there is no seed of sin.

I can't say for certain, but I would hardly think that evil is the same as atheism or materialism, which is what your definition seems to imply. Could you please clarify on what you mean, because just because a jiva is ignorant and thus succumbs to maya and the cycle of birth/death does not mean that they are harming others. At best, it could be regarded as sinful but not evil, right?



Free will does exist, but not in the extent that the Abhrahamic religions believe it to be. Its quite a complex topic but I'll try to simplify it. Originally when the Jivas were manifest (not created) in the beginning of creation, we had completely free will. The Jivas being formed from the region between the spiritual and material world was given a choice, to either be dependent on God or independent of Him. At this moment our will was completely "free". However once we fell into this cycle of birth and death (Samsara) our will became heavily restricted. Currently we are heavily conditioned by our previous impressions of experiences (called Samskaras), our current body (determined by our Karma) and this determines our personality, our inclinations, our tendencies to favour certain choices over others. So our will is not completely "free" in one sense. This is know as the vicious cycle of Karma as explained below:
I just wanted to say that this is a Gaudiya Vaishnava idea only, in case onlookers were wondering.


Due to the way sin is defined, an omnipotent and omniscient Brahman is compatible with free will. Since sin is independence and ignorance from God, where there is one choice (choosing to be with God), by default the other choice arises (choosing not to be with God, i.e sin). The recognition of one choice, automatically brings about recognition of another choice. An Omnipotent God cannot create a scenario where only the good choice remains (staying with God), because the good choice by default brings about the bad one. To do so, would be an logical contradiction. In order for the Jiva's will to be completely free, she must be able to choose whatever is available for her. Hence we can apply the free will objection here quite easily.
I wanted your thoughts on something. I've heard several Sri Vaishnavas say that it is actually easy for us to forget about Brahman and enjoy our lives in the material world. Thus, in the material world, agnosticism is the default state of the jiva before they start to inquire (brahma jijnasa) about the universe in a mystical manner.
 

User14

Member
because just because a jiva is ignorant and thus succumbs to maya and thecycle of birth/death does not meanthat they are harming others.

I sometimes wonder if it's possible for anything to exist in the material world without harming other things in that same material world. That beings must harm or deprive other beings in order to sustain their own existence is one of the fundamanetal limitations of the material world.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Lol "consensus" Hindus can't even agree what Dharma specifically means outside of some vague definitions regarding righteousness. And it's quite literally a Dharmic religion!

I'll say what I personally believe, which was shaped by my religious upbringing.
There is no good and no evil, at least not in a vs sense.

Good and evil are more of a gradient. Every human has the capability of doing good and doing bad. Even Hitler as loathed as he is, did lift Germany up after WWI. And it wasn't like everything the Allies did was entirely ethical, at least not by today's standards.
Even in our stories, it's not so much good vs evil, it's a side that happens to have more good in it vs a side that has more bad in it. Often simplified by today's readings but still. Ravana wasn't a terrible evil *******, he was a sincere devotee of Shiva, Karna wasn't a heartless wretch, he was a loyal friend. Even the good guys in the sagas are not without terrible flaws. The Pandava brothers (the "good guys") gambled away their wife Draupadi and even more dishonorably, they do not defend their wife when she is subsequently humiliated. Vikarna is the only one of the Kauravas ("bad guys") who speaks out in disgust at the treatment of his sister in law, Vikarna claiming such treatment will spell the doom of their own line as a consequence and Vidura (uncle to both sides) going so far as to call Duryodhana a demon.

I believe in free will. Every human has to make their own decisions, every human has to live with whatever consequences those choices come with and every human has the right to choose for themselves their own path in life.

Whether or not these beliefs are "traditionally Hindu" I honestly don't know.
 
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ShivaFan

Satyameva Jayate
Premium Member
Even many Demons have their better qualities - in other words we are all individuals albeit entrapped in ignorance, but there is diversity even in ignorance.

Take Ravana for example, He was once a Doorkeeper to the Heaven but then "fell down" and upon taking over Regency of Lanka from his relative Kubera in order to be Raja of the Sapphires or Saivhiras (Shiva Gem Stones) he became King of the Rakshasas (Demons) who he adopted as like his children though naughty children who even eat human flesh.

Ravana of course did many horrible things in His affairs with Rama Leela including kidnapping Ram's wife Sita Who is in fact Bhoomi Mother Earth Herself. Ram was avatar of Vishnu Who came to Bhumi to save humans and Himself was Half-human/Half-God which seems impossible since God is All God but RAM COULD FEEL THE PAIN AND LOVE AS WELL AS BETRAYALS of and by humans. Literally He could feel physical pain of humans.

Ravana the Raja of Lanka was defeated by Ram, Lakshman, Hanuman (Monkey God Who is 11th Rudra Shiva), hosts of Bears and Monkeys and Birds, Vulture, even some Demons as well as humans, even relatives of Ravan and so on... and here we get to my path of understanding of evil:

There is NO instrinsic evil. Evil exists, but is diverse and ALL THINGS CHANGE.

So for example Ravana. Some paths say Ravan was killed in battle against the Monkey Armies. BUT that is not my path of Hinduism.

In my path, Ravan fell but did not die. He went into a Coma. Rakshasas who loved Him then took His body to a mountain in Sri Lanka and entombed His body into a Crypt in a cave on the Mountain.

There Ravan lies even to this day, until... if a drop of Ganga Jal (sprinkle of water from the Holy Ganges River) is sprinkled onto his body, the King of Rakshasas will AGAIN RISE FROM THE "DEAD".

This will happen at a time when there is a GREAT CRISIS among human affairs. WHILE Ravan will still have "some bad qualities" yet He will emerge from the Cave as a Warrior and SAVE HUMANS. He will be a HERO.

So is evil permanent?

No. ALL THINGS CHANGE. The Wheel of Time Turns. And each of us has FREE WILL even if entrapped by Maya. Time will tell.


One thing is for sure. Ravan was indeed a DEVOTEE of Shiva.

Even a Demon can be a devotee of God, some have the very desire to die at the Hands of God.

But no one really dies. Even Gods cannot actually kill you for good. Where you go, is where your feet take you.

And Hindus go in many directions.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I sometimes wonder if it's possible for anything to exist in the material world without harming other things in that same material world. That beings must harm or deprive other beings in order to sustain their own existence is one of the fundamanetal limitations of the material world.
You may be right, but it's the intention that matters. Lying is considered a vice in the Mahabharata unless, as Krishna says, you do it to protect someone's life or any other noble cause. No one, of course, is born with evil intent.

Regardless, I think that this conception of evil has come about in Hinduism due to the Deva v Asura conflicts mentioned in the mythologies. While it may be easy to characterize Devas as righteous and just and the Asuras as immoral and violent, this generalization doesn't fit in with the bigger picture. I'm glad that Hindu mythology, whether it be correct or not, does not have this dichotomy of morality that is found in other cultures.

Devas are only favored because they received knowledge of Brahman, as the Upanishads indicate, but they are still vain, arrogant, envious, and deceitful at times. Indra had to be continuously humbled by Vishnu and taught lessons on morality and spirituality from Brahma in order to make sure he didn't abuse his subjects. On the other hand, Asuras such as Prahlada, Bali, Maya etc, with the knowledge of Brahman, are able to surpass even Indra when it comes to valor and qualities. It's great because it lets the stories have more life and feel more realistic.

So evil is not based on birth or creed, so then what exactly is it? Does it actually exist? It's important for us to ask this question because let's face it, the villain is simply the hero of the other side: there is no true dichotomy.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
I can't say for certain, but I would hardly think that evil is the same as atheism or materialism, which is what your definition seems to imply. Could you please clarify on what you mean, because just because a jiva is ignorant and thus succumbs to maya and the cycle of birth/death does not mean that they are harming others. At best, it could be regarded as sinful but not evil, right?

Its hard to discuss this because when we use words like evil and sin, it has Abrahamic overtones associated with it. The word closest to evil/sin is paapa. The seed of paapa is ignorance of both one's nitya dharma (as an eternal servant of Narayana) and also to some degree, one's Naimittika Dharma (bodily dharma, i.e if a Kshatriya kills someone in order to dispense justice, it is not seen as paapa, by Shastra because such an action is according to Naimittika Dharma, while if some else does it in another circumstance, it is generally Paapa). This is because by following ones Naimittika Dharma properly one slowly comes to the stage of following one's Nitya Dharma.

Also I think harm doesn't equal to evil. Alot of people confuse the problem of suffering with the problem of evil. They are not the same. Suffering arises due to attachment to the fruits of our Karma and the false ego of being the enjoyer. However because Karma is a Just system, all suffering is justified. Krsna says in Gita, "sama aham sarva bhutesu" I am impartial to all living beings. Everything we get in this world (suffering or pleasure) is due to our own actions. The root of that suffering however is ignorance (of one's true position) and that is the paapa which is why we are suffering in the first place.

Atheist and materialism is interesting. In the ultimate sense, it is paapa, not because of its relation with harm, but it is done under ignorance (from a Vaishnav POV of course). However in another sense, if an atheist/materialist is performing their Naimittika Dharma , then in the circumstantial sense it is not paapa because while they are not following the nitya dharma, by the process of following their bodily dharma (Naimittika) they are advancing spiritually. Krsna said in Gita that is it better to follow one's own Dharma correctly than another's incorrectly. Different Jivas have different eligibilities and so they will follow different paths.

I wanted your thoughts on something. I've heard several Sri Vaishnavas say that it is actually easy for us to forget about Brahman and enjoy our lives in the material world. Thus, in the material world, agnosticism is the default state of the jiva before they start to inquire (brahma jijnasa) about the universe in a mystical manner.

I also agree. Due to the marginal nature of the jiva, forgetfulness becomes one of her faults. Agnosticism is a default stage once we fall into the samsara. as that is when the jiva has already been overcome by Maya, and thus in an ignorant stage (of forgeting Brahman). Not just forgetfulness, but there are other things that can easily lead to falldown. Excessive enjoyment is actually a result of attachment. The story of Bharata Muni was very interesting in this regard. In his life, Bharat Muni was on the verge of Mukti. He was fully renounced and also realized in Brahman Jnana. More then that, He was in the stage of Bhava Bhakti (which is even higher then the Brahma Bhuta stage of self realisation) However what happened was that as he was meditating one day, he saw that a mother deer and perished and left a baby deer alone to die. Bharat took pity on the deer and this pity developed in attactchment for the deer. When at last it came to die, his last thought was not of Brahman, but of the deer and due to this, instead of getting moksha he entered into the body of a deer in his next life. (ultimately he did get liberation, but the point of the story is that even someone on the verge of moksha can fall down due to the bewilderment of Maya).

So anyway, because of this paapa (of ignorance) we develop false ego and suffer the fruits of our karma. We do this until through various lives, but it is only really in human life that we have a capability to follow Dharma. Agnosticism I would say only comes about consciously. but our spiritual efforts are never lost. If someone has performed Bhakti in one life, and is reborn, due to their sukrti generated from Bhakti, they will be born in an environment where they will immediately continue their Bhakti again. It is a question of association. Prahlad Maharaj was born in awareness of God because He has heard Bhagavatam from Narada while still in the womb of the mother.

Until a jiva actually becomes truly Mukta, she does not actually know Brahman, because the Upanishads says that one who simply knows Brahman become liberated from Samsara. Our knowleadge of Brahman (i.e our spiritual consciousness) is incomplete and evolves through various births and lives as we move through different religions and paths. As we move through these paths, our knowledge of Brahman becomes purer and purer (barring some fall down) until we finally understand Him, and get Moksha. This also explains why there is so much variety of religion of different purities. Sorry for the long post. Just my thoughts on this.
 
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निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
Even many Demons have their better qualities - in other words we are all individuals albeit entrapped in ignorance, but there is diversity even in ignorance.

I mean look as Prahlad, Bali and Vibhishana. All three were king of the demons (as one point) and they are glorified constantly in scripture.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
I just wanted to say that this is a Gaudiya Vaishnava idea only, in case onlookers were wondering.

What is the Sri Vaisnava opinion of the manifestation of the jiva and free will? :)
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I've heard several Sri Vaishnavas say that it is actually easy for us to forget about Brahman and enjoy our lives in the material world.
Don't we all do that. How many times we remember Brahman each day? Maya. It does not let us remember Brahman. :)
I sometimes wonder if it's possible for anything to exist in the material world without harming other things in that same material world. That beings must harm or deprive other beings in order to sustain their own existence is one of the fundamantal limitations of the material world.
If one is clinical about it, it cannot be done. So, one should try to do that as far as possible. Have you read the 'Dharmavyadha' story in Srimad Bhagawat Purana?
 
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Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What is the Sri Vaisnava opinion of the manifestation of the jiva and free will? :)
Well, the idea that we were in the spiritual world and then "fell" to the material world is not accepted. In SV at least, all jivas have been in the material realm, as beings when Brahma is awake, and as collective unconcious when he is not.
 
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