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Hello my Hindu friends
- Thread starter MD
- Start date
Is there any more information about this? And what is this 'collective unconscious' you refer to?
Hmm, I think the Srimad Bhagavatam has information on this but I'm not sure where. Probably where they talk about the life of Brahma.
The collective unconscious is basically when, after the death of Brahma, all the entities in the universe (atma and matter) get condensed into their dormant state.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Does Brahma get old, feeble, die? A Sri vaishnava tries to explain:
"Thus, in the Hindu philosophy (Aup. adds: the SV version
), all things and all souls exist permanently. What we call creation and destruction are only manifestations and de-manifestations- all as willed by (Bhagavat Sankalpa). Death of living creatures is thus nothing but separation of the soul from the manifest body on its onward march to assuming another body in its next life in the cycle of Samsara until Pralaya when the souls rests in the Lord during his Yoganidra (Contemplative reverie) to be re-manifested with its Karma carry- overs when Bhagavan wakes up again to recreate."
PraLayams
"Thus, in the Hindu philosophy (Aup. adds: the SV version
), all things and all souls exist permanently. What we call creation and destruction are only manifestations and de-manifestations- all as willed by (Bhagavat Sankalpa). Death of living creatures is thus nothing but separation of the soul from the manifest body on its onward march to assuming another body in its next life in the cycle of Samsara until Pralaya when the souls rests in the Lord during his Yoganidra (Contemplative reverie) to be re-manifested with its Karma carry- overs when Bhagavan wakes up again to recreate."PraLayams
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Yeah we also don't accept that. For some reason ISKCON is preaching that philosophy. The jivas come from the tatastha (border between vaikuntha and Maya) not from Vaikuntha itself. We are Nitya Baddha (eternally conditioned).
Btw @Terese Ji i have chapter in Bhagavatam where you can read if you want. Basically during the final devestation everything exists in unmanifest form within The body of Maya Vishnu and when the Lord wishes to create, the Jivas exist and enter into the World again.
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Tatastha? I have not heard of this before! And nitya baddha? What about when we enter Vaikuntha/Goloka?
I would love to read that chapter, thank you
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Tatastha? I have not heard of this before! And nitya baddha? What about when we enter Vaikuntha/Goloka?
I would love to read that chapter, thank you
Its in Canto 3 chapter 26. I actually really like the below site, because it compiles all relevent verses from Bhagavatam on this matter and sort of explains it a little (Bhagavatam used very strange analogy here):
Veda Academy - Manifestation of the Material World
Um, actually I've heard two terms being. A Dvaitin I met used the term anadi-baddha, (means conditioned from time immemorial) while we used the term nitya baddha (conditioned eternally). They means the same thing (basically the Jiva was conditioned from its manifestation). I don't mean that the jiva is conditioned forever. Those Jivas, who surrender unto Narayana attain Vaikuntha and are called Sadhana Siddha (perfected through spiritual practice). There is also another class called nitya siddhas, which refer to those Jivas who were never conditioned but always perfect (jivas like Garuda,etc, who are eternal associates of Narayana).
Thank you for the link! And the clarification!
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That seems like Samkhya (if I am not wrong). Too long for me to read completely.
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
You are correct. It is Bhagavatam's Sankhya, spoken by Lord Kapila to His mother Devahuti.
Do you think ISKCON may have unintentionally misunderstood the tatastha interpretation and claimed that we are originally from Vaikuntha, or is there something else? Their theory is way too similar to Genesis.
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Yes, it seems they have. You see, during the preaching of the movement Srila Prabhupada made many statements like "come Back to Godhead" and "return to Krsna" as a way of appealing to Western devotees. However the current governing body has interpreted the statement quite literally to mean that the jivas were once in Vaikuntha with Krsna. Not only is this view inconsistent with what every single Guru has said in our line, but even Srila Prabhupada's words in this matter are not clear. Usually when ones Guru's words are unclear, one should consult other exalted Vaishnavs and scripture to clarify. This dilemma caused a huge rift even within ISKCON. When the ISKCON governing body "voted" that the jivas falls from Vaikuntha, many exalted and learnt Vaishnavs (such as Gour Govinda Maharaj) expressed great sadness at such a verdict, which was not determined by scripture but rather by a vote. Other Gaudiya Vaishnavs also published books like "not a leaf falls from Vaikuntha" in order to present some Shastric arguements.
But it's really hard to convince some people. Like the other day I was trying to explain to a ISKCON devotee why it is impossible for someone who has attained the service of Krsna to fall down (because one of the characteristics of Prema Bhakti, is that once you have it, you cannot lose it) and I showed him the scripture verses that relate to the jiva coming from the tathasta, but he was quite firm in his opinion (he said that the jivas 'enter' into the world through tatathas but they were always originally with Krsna. That's why many devotees have given up arguing this haha. Ultimately it will make no difference in our sadhana. We are all in the material world now.
Namaste, MD
As others noted, there is probably not a Hindu in the forum who didn't at least smile when you asked for a consensus on these matters.
And I had to go research what "qualia" meant: the internal and subjective component of sense perceptions, arising from stimulation of the senses by phenomena. Most schools of Hinduism teach that Self, Brahman, God by whatever Name, is incapable of being perceived either by the senses or by the interaction of transitory phenomena with them. The word "transcendental" is used to describe that, i.e., God-experience transcends the senses. In other words, God/Truth is not subjective.There are other, older threads here dealing with the question of free will in Hinduism. I'd like to offer some insight on your question regarding evil, the contemplation of which might serve as a springboard to your own illumination on the matter. I say it that way because one of the basic tenets of Hinduism I believe--no matter the flavor of Hinduism one finds most tasty--is that the spiritual aspirant cannot, will not be able to settle his mind's questions definitively with the answer, "Because so-and-so said so." With the singular exception being if one's guru says so.
And even then, that doesn't make the knowledge one's own. Truth is an experience, to be experienced. It is not a mental, emotional or intellectual construct to be evaluated and decided upon.That said, here's my two cents worth of construction. Evil is no more real than good is real. Both are illusions in the cosmic sense referring to the deluding potency of the Creator, without which the plot of the whole Staged Play (Creation) cannot "exist." We can know this because God/Truth/Reality does not change; it was, is and will be the same forever. But throughout man's history, we have seen how the application of the concepts of what is good and what is evil can morph so completely that things once considered "evil" are now considered "good" and vice versa. This is the clue that both good and evil are concepts in the mind and surely influenced heavily by the society and times in which one is living. Ergo, good and evil cannot be called immutable Reality, i.e., Truth or God. They are ideas and as such, do not have permanent existence. They live, move and have their "being" only in the realm of duality (illusion, maya), a realm which is indeed created, inhabited, preserved and destroyed by Brahman alone.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
I have a unique view of Hinduism and truly believe that evil exists as a metaphysical force along with two other facets of energy, divine and semi divine. In Hinduism these are described as tamasic, sattvic and rajasic respectively so that these aspects of biological character is manifest through what I describe as guna consciousness forces. The guna consciousness affects our mind and there are many distinct characters in the triad that are blends of the three gunas. (guna means the property of what constitutes us in Nature). If you wish to discuss this further I am available to do so.
Free will also exists in Hinduism and it is through surrender of free will to God that we carry out God's wishes and seek and adopt His guidance in our lives.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram MD ji
having read many fine answers here I can only give a personal perspective , .....is evil real ?...in the relative sence yes , ...ultimatly No!
to me as a Hindu there is only Dharma and Adharma , that which supports order and that which goes against it .
so I must agree with those who have said that eveil is merly ignorance as it comes from not knowing , ...but I must also agree with those who have said that thereare evil forces as our actions create energies which affect otheres for the better or for the worse if these energies are created delliberatly then this creates an atmosphere of evil upon which some thrive even delight in , .....
this brings us to the question of free will , I belive we do have free will as we can choose whether to act on impulse or wheather to sensure our own instinctive actions if they are not in line with Dharma
But sadly in many instances ignorance blinds us we do not allways realise when we are in accordance with Dharma and when we are not , in this instance ignorance can limit our free will merely by Blinding us to the nececity to act .
having read many fine answers here I can only give a personal perspective , .....is evil real ?...in the relative sence yes , ...ultimatly No!
to me as a Hindu there is only Dharma and Adharma , that which supports order and that which goes against it .
so I must agree with those who have said that eveil is merly ignorance as it comes from not knowing , ...but I must also agree with those who have said that thereare evil forces as our actions create energies which affect otheres for the better or for the worse if these energies are created delliberatly then this creates an atmosphere of evil upon which some thrive even delight in , .....
this brings us to the question of free will , I belive we do have free will as we can choose whether to act on impulse or wheather to sensure our own instinctive actions if they are not in line with Dharma
But sadly in many instances ignorance blinds us we do not allways realise when we are in accordance with Dharma and when we are not , in this instance ignorance can limit our free will merely by Blinding us to the nececity to act .
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
Evil is a tamasic attribute that rejects reason, reject truth, and rejects justice as the person lives to satisfy his or her senses alone. This can become widespread enough to engulf the entire nation on the same consumerist path. No matter how much sense you provide through sattvic education, evil (tamasic) will reject it in favour of the pursuit of ego-based living pursuits and the maintainance of the evil outlook. So I disagree with your analysis that it is equivalent to ignorance. When there is no desire to learn even when the teachings are provided on a platter, that is evil.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
Namaskaram Shantanu ji
Agreed , certainly Tamas and Rajas when unballanced are thae cause of all ills in this society it is this imballance which blinds a person to the true nature of reality therefore they become absorbed in this consumerist society which preys on the greed of the self obsessed , false identification with the self and an exagerated sence of self importance makes for a self orientated attitude , one that grasps at its own happiness thinking little of the happiness of others , ....
but is this imballance , this predominance of Rajas and Tamas evil ? ...it is a dissorder , ....it is Blindness , it is a dissability to see and understand the narural order of life
it is not so much a case of providing sence through Sattvic education because many times a person who is so consumed by his own desires will not even see that he is imballanced , he thinks that his behavior is normal but when his own actions become the cause of his own suffering he becomes even more angry and imballanced he is like a man in a rage he is too angry to stop and listen to reason , he is so wraped up in his own thoughts that he canot see , canot hear , .....this is why I have called it ignorance , it is darkness and he is drowning , he canot understand how harmfull his actions realy are , even harmfull to the self ....he is like a sick man who needs to become well , to become ballanced again .
when Tamas Rajas and Sattva are ballanced he becomes well again he is not blind sick or deluded , ....
look at the story of Hiranyakashipu he was so self posessed that the goodness of young Prahlada maharaj was so threatening to him that he trued every way to forbid his love of God , when forbiding did not work he tried to kill Prahlada , but every time he tried to kill him Prahlada miraciously was not hurt , ....you may call this intention evil and here I will agree that his intention was against goodness so it can be said to be evil intent , ...but it is also a state of delusion , blindness , ignorance because Hrianyakashipu was thinking that he was all powerfull , that he was greater or more powerfull than God , ...this is a state of delusion , of ignorance , ...so here Hiranyakashipu's evil came about through delusion , through ignorance , ...and Prahlad Maharaj's goodness came as a result of knowledge , ....Knowledge of God and a trust in God's supreme greatness .
Agreed , certainly Tamas and Rajas when unballanced are thae cause of all ills in this society it is this imballance which blinds a person to the true nature of reality therefore they become absorbed in this consumerist society which preys on the greed of the self obsessed , false identification with the self and an exagerated sence of self importance makes for a self orientated attitude , one that grasps at its own happiness thinking little of the happiness of others , ....
but is this imballance , this predominance of Rajas and Tamas evil ? ...it is a dissorder , ....it is Blindness , it is a dissability to see and understand the narural order of life
it is not so much a case of providing sence through Sattvic education because many times a person who is so consumed by his own desires will not even see that he is imballanced , he thinks that his behavior is normal but when his own actions become the cause of his own suffering he becomes even more angry and imballanced he is like a man in a rage he is too angry to stop and listen to reason , he is so wraped up in his own thoughts that he canot see , canot hear , .....this is why I have called it ignorance , it is darkness and he is drowning , he canot understand how harmfull his actions realy are , even harmfull to the self ....he is like a sick man who needs to become well , to become ballanced again .
when Tamas Rajas and Sattva are ballanced he becomes well again he is not blind sick or deluded , ....
look at the story of Hiranyakashipu he was so self posessed that the goodness of young Prahlada maharaj was so threatening to him that he trued every way to forbid his love of God , when forbiding did not work he tried to kill Prahlada , but every time he tried to kill him Prahlada miraciously was not hurt , ....you may call this intention evil and here I will agree that his intention was against goodness so it can be said to be evil intent , ...but it is also a state of delusion , blindness , ignorance because Hrianyakashipu was thinking that he was all powerfull , that he was greater or more powerfull than God , ...this is a state of delusion , of ignorance , ...so here Hiranyakashipu's evil came about through delusion , through ignorance , ...and Prahlad Maharaj's goodness came as a result of knowledge , ....Knowledge of God and a trust in God's supreme greatness .
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