Heracles

[LegionOnomaMoi]

One of the basic things they teach students of Greek literature in Classical departments in universities around the world when they cover the Iliad is the way the Olympian gods are parodied in comic relief from the serious and dramatic battle and political scenes.

Classical languages was one of my majors and in addition to the standard 4th semester Homer (second semester of intermediate Greek) I took an upper level (Greek) course specifically devoted to Homeric epic. Nowhere in these or other courses (from Greek religion to e.g., a course on oratory which included reading the entirety of On the Mysteries, a defense by Andokides for the charge of religious impiety) did I ever once come across the view that Homer parodied the gods. The Homeric epics defined the gods for Greeks and other cultures. And the epics themselves were parodied in drama and in a brilliantly witty Battle of Mice and Frogs (Batrachomyomachia).

Hmm.. you know what? It appears that all the links on the first page of google search discuss Homer's depiction of the gods as comic relief, as petty, as bickering, and as a source of laughter.

Petty, bickering, etc., yes. That's why for certain intellectuals like Plato, Homer and Hesiod were deadly problems. They were the closest thing to a bible the Greeks had and the cultural shifts from Homer's time to that of Plato's had created a rift between what was appropriate for the gods and what was appropriate in general.

I guess you should have listened more carefully during those wasted two months of academic studies.

Without Homer, there's no Greek religion. Here's the Blackwell Companion to Greek religion: Companion to Greek Religion. It's a collection of papers by specialists in the field to give one an idea of the state of research on numerous topics relating to Greek religion as well as plenty of sources to check out. Homer is littered across just about every single one. Homer was the Greek gods for the most part and defined not only so much of Greek religion (including very likely religious art, rituals, etc.) but also Roman.

 

[Poeticus]

Legion,

Did Homer depict Achilles in a negative way and in a parodying-like manner?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Legion,

Did Homer depict Achilles in a negative way and in a parodying-like manner?

Negative is relative. For example, a dominant Western moral paradigm is "love your enemies" and the golden rule. The Greeks did not subscribe to either, but rather to the dictum "do good to your friends, and evil to your enemies". For us, the heroes of Homer, Hesiod, Sophocles, etc., are often evil, brutal, even whiny. But they shaped the masculine ethos of the entirety of ancient Greece before the late Classical era and continued to dominate after. Euripides' plays frequently turn the logic of the Homeric and Sophoclean Hero on its face by e.g., portraying Medea as such a Hero. But by and large, Homer continued to define the masculine and heroic archetype including depictions and stories about Achilles.

And nothing in Homer is parody.

 

[Poeticus]

Negative is relative. For example, a dominant Western moral paradigm is "love your enemies" and the golden rule. The Greeks did not subscribe to either, but rather to the dictum "do good to your friends, and evil to your enemies". For us, the heroes of Homer, Hesiod, Sophocles, etc., are often evil, brutal, even whiny. But they shaped the masculine ethos of the entirety of ancient Greece before the late Classical era and continued to dominate after. Euripides' plays frequently turn the logic of the Homeric and Sophoclean Hero on its face by e.g., portraying Medea as such a Hero (I write about that here; p. 19). But by and large, Homer continued to define the masculine and heroic archetype including depictions and stories about Achilles.

And nothing in Homer is parody.

That's very interesting. Thank you for that insightful explanation.

 

[Willamena]

Discuss

Is that a Sontaran behind him?

 

[Whiterain]

I'm not offended, I wouldn't put myself through the misery of feeling bad about these films, not Heracles alone.
The Rock is just the most inconspicuous individual I would have chose for the role in particular. It is because
he isn't white or Greek, but not in a rude way, it's just awkward, like an ethnicity playing a different ethnicity.

Dwayne Johnson is a champion but not someone I would or think would have been chosen for the role.

It should be better than the Scorpion King.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

And then, plot twist - Fast and Furious and Hercules were two connected movies

 

[Whiterain]

Hollywood is ******* demoralizing...

 

[Caladan]

Classical languages was one of my majors and in addition to the standard 4th semester Homer (second semester of intermediate Greek) I took an upper level (Greek) course specifically devoted to Homeric epic. Nowhere in these or other courses (from Greek religion to e.g., a course on oratory which included reading the entirety of On the Mysteries, a defense by Andokides for the charge of religious impiety) did I ever once come across the view that Homer parodied the gods. The Homeric epics defined the gods for Greeks and other cultures. And the epics themselves were parodied in drama and in a brilliantly witty Battle of Mice and Frogs (Batrachomyomachia).

Before we go into an exhausting and anal retentive debate about semantics, I'll put my post into context again.

1. The OP was addressing the demoralizing (not respectful? not authentically glorious?... I'm speculating here) way which Holywood presents Greek mythology/literature.

My perspective: It is pretty amusing to criticize Holywood for not showing the appropriate respect to the heroes and gods of Greek mythology, when Homer himself depicted the gods of the Iliad as a dysfunctional family of bickering spouses, a physically abusive father, and a manipulative mother. And of course the bullying by the Olympian gods of a disabled brother. The gods are indeed presented as a comic relief from the intense and dramatic war scenes and schemes. In addition, various heroes are presented with fatalistic weaknesses, sometimes pettiness.

2. I already believe that I made it clear that I do not consider the Iliad to be parody literature. It's not hard to see the context in which I used the word parody in the first place, nitpicking words out of posts instead of focusing on their essence in relation to an OP rarely bring out productive debates or discussion.

So, to conclude. Iliad: Not a parody book. Holywood: May be reinventing Greek mythology in cheap way in a way which people may find unflattering to heroes or gods. Irony: Heroes and gods have already been portrayed in unflattering ways in ancient Greek literature. Conclusion: There is no point idolizing heroes and gods of the golden past through modern lens and standards without addressing how they have been depicted during their heyday.

Petty, bickering, etc., yes. That's why for certain intellectuals like Plato, Homer and Hesiod were deadly problems. They were the closest thing to a bible the Greeks had and the cultural shifts from Homer's time to that of Plato's had created a rift between what was appropriate for the gods and what was appropriate in general.


Without Homer, there's no Greek religion. Here's the Blackwell Companion to Greek religion: Companion to Greek Religion. It's a collection of papers by specialists in the field to give one an idea of the state of research on numerous topics relating to Greek religion as well as plenty of sources to check out. Homer is littered across just about every single one. Homer was the Greek gods for the most part and defined not only so much of Greek religion (including very likely religious art, rituals, etc.) but also Roman.

That is an interesting addition in the thread, as we can expend it into discussion of 'authentic' and non authentic depictions and perceptions of films which are based on mythological literature and traditions, and how various prominent writers or directors view what is accepted and what is not.

 

[Quintessence]

My perspective: It is pretty amusing to criticize Holywood for not showing the appropriate respect to the heroes and gods of Greek mythology, when Homer himself depicted the gods of the Iliad as a dysfunctional family of bickering spouses, a physically abusive father, and a manipulative mother. And of course the bullying by the Olympian gods of a disabled brother. The gods are indeed presented as a comic relief from the intense and dramatic war scenes and schemes. In addition, various heroes are presented with fatalistic weaknesses, sometimes pettiness.

This sounds like your personal interpretation of things through the lens of modern biases, not something that's strictly factual. If this is the perspective you're taking on Pagan mythos and religion, than I believe you probably made some incorrect assumptions about where I'm coming from when I object to modern renditions of Pagan traditions. I don't have a problem with renditions that are respectful and true to the source material and the essences and natures of the gods. What often happens, however, is a twisting and distortion of Pagan mythos and religions through a monotheistic lens. Our culture's strong monotheistic bias loves to diss on polytheistic beliefs and practices as inferior, outmoded, and primitive. You end up with dialogue and comments about the nature of polytheism that are completely off-base and disrespect Pagan mythos and traditions.

For example, in the TV series Hercules (which I generally love in spite of its butchering of Pagan mythology), the opening sequence has this dialogue: "This is the story of a time long ago. A time of myth and legend. When the ancient gods were petty and cruel and they plagued mankind with suffering." There's no mention of the fact that the Pagan gods are also responsible for all of humanity's blessings and fortunes. The entire series - as well as it's Xena spin off - tends to glaze over the gifts of the gods and humanity's dependence on them in favor of type-casting them as nasty nasties. That is the kind of thing I have a problem with: depiction of Pagan religion and our gods in a one-sided and nasty fashion that validates the prevailing cultural narrative of monotheistic superiority. Also, completely off-base interpretations of a god's nature: depicting a goddess like Aphrodite as a prude, whitewashing war gods into being nice and pleasant... things like that. It's irritating. Extremely predicable in our culture that barely thinks polytheism still exists, much less people who honor the old gods, but still irritating.

 

[Whiterain]

I don't know, maybe if Tom Hanks directed it, Heracles would be good kino.

It's insult to injury. How hard is it to make a respectable film about the tormented life Alcaeus lived, whilst doing amazing things, slaying beasts and founding Sparta.

Very few films go the extra mile to honor the Gods or Heroes. Liam Neeson is great too.

I don't understand the motive behind the way they make these films.

Ironclad for instance honored the Templar, even though the film isn't educational material, I wouldn't throw it in the classroom DVD player, yessah.. "The Season of the Witch" for instance was a heinous perversion with higher
paid actors. I just felt like mentioning Ironclad. Season of the Witch was damn near insulting.

How hard is it to honor the Gods and legendary warriors without over sensationalizing
them with cgi and all. Ironclad for instance wasn't even a Mel Gibson film.

Cheers to that Anglo Saxon

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I don't understand the motive behind the way they make these films.

That's easy. Money. It's always money.

 

[Caladan]

This sounds like your personal interpretation of things through the lens of modern biases, not something that's strictly factual. If this is the perspective you're taking on Pagan mythos and religion, than I believe you probably made some incorrect assumptions about where I'm coming from when I object to modern renditions of Pagan traditions. I don't have a problem with renditions that are respectful and true to the source material and the essences and natures of the gods. What often happens, however, is a twisting and distortion of Pagan mythos and religions through a monotheistic lens. Our culture's strong monotheistic bias loves to diss on polytheistic beliefs and practices as inferior, outmoded, and primitive. You end up with dialogue and comments about the nature of polytheism that are completely off-base and disrespect Pagan mythos and traditions.

Not really my personal interpretation. I grew up on Greek mythology, but as a child Greek mythology was watered down for me. Most of my sources were not still the original literature itself but instead edited versions suitable for children. In my mind the Greek heroes and gods were the pinnacle of human heroism, virtue, and hunger for adventures. Only as the years passed and I began reading heavier material, and original sources I was faced with the unrefined version. My introduction to the Greek gods and some of the heroes in the Iliad was harsh. Because while I find the literature itself outstanding, including many of the scenes, the battles, and the schemes. I had to face with the ultimate fact (again, against my will. Simply an academic fact) that the gods in the Iliad are a diversion from the literary potent battle and political scenes. The gods ARE a comic relief in the Iliad. They are petty. They are bickering. While some of the heroes, such as Hector are the pinnacle of human heroism and virtues. Human heroes like him find themselves in the political whims of the gods, as they play humans against each other for their petty interests. Even heroes I grew up to love and admire, such as Achilles were undeniably incredibly flawed in character in the Iliad (only perhaps in later parts of the Iliad, does Homer tries to redeem Achilles from his spoiled and petty personality).
My society has no negative misconceptions about Greek culture for the most part. If anything it, the average secular Israeli culture celebrates the Greek mythological ethos. So no, as much as I grew up to love these heroes and gods, Homer's Iliad is certainly not a fertile ground for people who wish to hear sweet poetry about their favorite mythological beings. In this regard, they are going to be disappointed. However, I take this literary device as it comes, and I learned to appreciate the idea and wisdom behind using the gods as a comic relief from heavy human drama.

For example, in the TV series Hercules (which I generally love in spite of its butchering of Pagan mythology), the opening sequence has this dialogue: "This is the story of a time long ago. A time of myth and legend. When the ancient gods were petty and cruel and they plagued mankind with suffering." There's no mention of the fact that the Pagan gods are also responsible for all of humanity's blessings and fortunes. The entire series - as well as it's Xena spin off - tends to glaze over the gifts of the gods and humanity's dependence on them in favor of type-casting them as nasty nasties. That is the kind of thing I have a problem with: depiction of Pagan religion and our gods in a one-sided and nasty fashion that validates the prevailing cultural narrative of monotheistic superiority. Also, completely off-base interpretations of a god's nature: depicting a goddess like Aphrodite as a prude, whitewashing war gods into being nice and pleasant... things like that. It's irritating. Extremely predicable in our culture that barely thinks polytheism still exists, much less people who honor the old gods, but still irritating.

For what its worth, I was talking about the Iliad specifically. True, it is a major source for some of the most important Greek narratives, however there are many other sources. However my point still stands, especially in light of what you said above. Some modern adaptation focus on the cruelty, whim, or even pettiness of the Classical gods. However, it brings us again to my original reminder that even in Classical literature this phenomenon exists. I can honestly say that only a handful of gods in the Iliad show consistent virtue. Hephaestus is perhaps the most humanized (and tragic) god in the Iliad, and he can be seen being bullied, and mocked by other Olympian gods for his physical appearance and disability.

 

[Whiterain]

Perhaps I will see this film.

The Nemean lion he turned into a tunic and cestus, to my knowledge. I was uncertain if he wore the head like a hood or wore the lions mane around the collar of his tunic, like a fur coat/jacket. The claws were made cestus, not gloves, slashing punching weapons.

Alas, this meager photo shows entices my imaginations effigy of Lord Alcaeus..