Hermaphrodites

[tomasortega]

many religionists(though not all) hold a black and white, good and evil view of the world, with not much room, if any for gray-matter. not sure about other religions but muslims, jews and a majority of christians, mostly fundamentalists, view homosexuality as a sin. some say people choose to be gay in rebellion against god, others say gays are posessed by demons. either way, they make it abundantly clear that their god hates or at least dislikes gays.

my question is, if god, the creator of the universe and everything in/around it hates homosexuality, then how come he also creates/created, hermaphrodites/pseudohermaphrodites and people with chemical/hormonal imbalances????

take caster semenya for example:
Semenya withdraws from race amidst reports she's hermaphrodite - Fourth-Place Medal - OLY - Yahoo! Sports

she/he/it is neither fully male nor fully female, caster obviously had no choice in the matter since she/he was born that way so there are no excuses for choice or demons. how do you explain this? did god decide he liked to mix things up for a change? or maybe he doesnt really care much about homosexuality in the first place?

and what if this person decides on a spouse? either way he/she will be either gay or lesbian.

your answers please...

and again, i realize that many christians on this forum, and especially nowdays do not think in black and white absolutes, so if you are one of those, this question is not directed towards you.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Wow didn't think I would see a thread like this. I would have to say because God is imaginary... Or that he likes futa*.


*Am I allowed to say that?

 

[te_lanus]

i would say that if 'it' decide he is a he, and marries a girl, it is a straight relationship. and visa versa. it is the same for transsexuals(gid). i dont think god sees any wrong with it

 

[gnomon]

I wish you luck, tomasortega.

I asked pretty much this same question two years ago. Only one person whom I considered a member of traditional theism attempted to answer the question. That was Scott. Many others of non-traditional or non-Western themed religions answered.

Hopefully you will get a better response from the traditional theists. Especially those who find placing human sexuality into black and white categories is so important.

 

[ChristineES]

Hermaphrodites, since they are either both male and female or neither male nor female, can't be fit into the same little labels as males and females. Heck, not even males and females can be fit into little labels when you take into consideration all the hormones and testosterones that are required for gender. I won't get into it since I don't have a degree in biology.
The only thing I can add is that I believe that God is more accepting than humans are.

 

[Breathe]

<<snip>> Or that he likes futa*.
*Am I allowed to say that?

:spit:LOL! Probably not.

 

[SHANMAC]

Wow...what in interesting question. I've never thought about it. Now that I am thinking about it, here's my two cents.

First, I would say that God did not make hermaphrodites because he likes to "mix it up." Second, I think the first thing you have to determine is whether heraphrodites can be homosexual. The first inquiry in this determination is whether one sex is clearly more dominant than another to the extent that regardless of having both sex organs, the person clearly is male or female in mind. If, however, one sex is not clearly dominant, you have to move to the next inquiry - can the person be homosexual? From a strict constructionist interpretation of the term "homosexual," I would say that a hermaphrodite cannot be homosexual. In the true sense of the term, a homosexual is attracted to the same sex. Since a hermaphrodite is both male and female or neither male nor female, there is no possibility for homosexuality. That being said, if you are not a strict constructionist, but rather look at the state of mind of the hermaphrodite in question, I suppose you could base your determination on the way in which the hermaphrodite "feels;" i.e. does the person believe he is male or female. If he believes he is male and has a sexual interest in another male, I suppose that person could be considered homosexual. I have no idea...again, just thoughts.

There also is the fall back (somtimes considered the "cop-out" response) position of we are not God and cannot begin to comprehend the plan God had in mind when a human is born with both sex organs. Perhaps it was to foster this discussion. I don't know.

All I know is that as a Christ Follower, I am called to love that person like my brother/sister. I do not judge him/her, and continue to love her regardless of what sex he/she decides to be with when choosing a spouse.

And, while I'm on the topic, I must clarify that most Christians do not hate homosexuals and do not beleive that God hates or even dislikes homosexuals. It's been my experience that most Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin. As a Christian, I am fully aware that I sin just like any other person. To me, there is no degree to sin. My sin (whether taking the Lord's name in vain or having sexual thoughts about a woman who is not my wife) is on the same level as homosexuality.

I'm not sure if that answered your question or just raised more questions. I'm guessing probably the latter.

 

[tomasortega]

allright, seeing as how no clear answer is to be had, lets take this a slightly different direction. shanmac, you say that most christians believe homosexuality to be a sin just like any other sin. now, assuming i were a christian, i think we can both agree that ever since sin entered the world through adam and eve, all people are born in sin. which means that people dont actually have any control, or choice over having sin within them.

now, yes, people can control the outcome of their sinful thoughts, but they can not control the thoughts themselfes...... for example.. yes, i can keep myself from commiting adultery with every attractive female i see, but i cant control my sexual appetite and urge for the opposite sex, because i was simply born with it, and its part of who i am, part of how god created me....

having just established that homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin.... it only makes sense to reason that homosexuals are born with the urge and sexual appetite for people of the same sex, just like most of humanity is born with the sexual urge towards the opposite sex....

because otherwise homosexuality would not be considered just another sin (like adultery) as you said.. correct?

my point is. do you agree on the possibility that some people are simply born gay? that god simply created some people gay?................

 

[Francis]

Hermaphrodites, since they are either both male and female or neither male nor female, can't be fit into the same little labels as males and females. Heck, not even males and females can be fit into little labels when you take into consideration all the hormones and testosterones that are required for gender. I won't get into it since I don't have a degree in biology.
The only thing I can add is that I believe that God is more accepting than humans are.

Basically this. And also, it just needs repeating: God doesn't hate homosexuals. He doesn't like the act itself.

Peace!

 

[EverChanging]

This is just another reason I think same-sex marriage should be legalized. (Actually, I think we should go beyond marriage, but for the present, I am happy to advocate for same-sex marriage.) Some intersex people are neither male nor female, either physically or genetically. Some have only one X chromosome, etc. Some of these intersexed people were assigned a sex at birth, and it turned out to be the wrong sex. A legally, surgically female intersexed person can grow up with a heterosexual male gender-identity, so if he has a female partner, because he is legally and surgically female, in most states he will be denied the right to marry his partner. Similar issues arise for those who are transgendered or transsexual and undergo a sex change. For instance, I read a book I learned about in human sexuality by Jennifer Finney Boylan -- She's Not There: A Life in Two Genders -- who remained married to her wife after the surgery. She considers herself bisexual. But if she were to divorce her wife and seek to re-marry her or marry another woman, she would not have that right any longer in her state, yet she had that same right earlier in life.

I asked a priest about this once, who believed women could be ordained to the orders of deacon and priest, but not bishop (or high priest.) I asked about an intersexed person who is both physically and genetically ambiguous. He was very surprised by the question, but said he would be hesitant for such a person to be consecrated as a bishop.

Knowing that most Christians, including this priest, define marriage as between one man and one woman, I asked whether such a person would be allowed to marry. This time he looked very shocked, and finally admitted to me that he just didn't know. He went on to say that this definitely raises interesting questions about the legitimacy of same-sex unions.

Homophobia takes a very narrow view of the world. Nature, including sexuality and gender-identity, is far more complex.

 

[fantome profane]

God doesn't hate homosexuals. He doesn't like the act itself.

If he doesn’t like it, he doesn’t have to do it.

 

[twinmama]

Good grief.."he doesn't like the act itself". And what is "the act"? Love? Kiss on the cheek? Holding hands? What is heterosexual act? It is SO easy to discriminate when you make homosexuality to be just a sexual act.

 

[gnomon]

allright, seeing as how no clear answer is to be had, lets take this a slightly different direction. shanmac, you say that most christians believe homosexuality to be a sin just like any other sin. now, assuming i were a christian, i think we can both agree that ever since sin entered the world through adam and eve, all people are born in sin. which means that people dont actually have any control, or choice over having sin within them.

now, yes, people can control the outcome of their sinful thoughts, but they can not control the thoughts themselfes...... for example.. yes, i can keep myself from commiting adultery with every attractive female i see, but i cant control my sexual appetite and urge for the opposite sex, because i was simply born with it, and its part of who i am, part of how god created me....

having just established that homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin.... it only makes sense to reason that homosexuals are born with the urge and sexual appetite for people of the same sex, just like most of humanity is born with the sexual urge towards the opposite sex....

because otherwise homosexuality would not be considered just another sin (like adultery) as you said.. correct?

my point is. do you agree on the possibility that some people are simply born gay? that god simply created some people gay?................

I would recommend not taking it in this direction. Hold the armchair theologians feet to the fire.

Either they can provide answers regarding to Biblical and theological views about intersex or just admit they don't have any idea at all.

 

[freethinker44]

i would say that if 'it' decide he is a he, and marries a girl, it is a straight relationship. and visa versa. it is the same for transsexuals(gid). i dont think god sees any wrong with it

What if "it" changes "its" mind later on and marries a man.

 

[Katzpur]

The only thing I can add is that I believe that God is more accepting than humans are.

And thank God that He is!

 

[freethinker44]

What if "it" changes "its" mind later on and marries a man.

Better yet, a lot of these cases are discovered at birth and the parents are allowed to choose which gender and the doctors perform an operation and the child takes hormone supplements. There are cases where, when the child gets to puberty, the parents realize that they chose wrong and now the child mentally is one gender but physically another. What would god think of that. What would other people think of that, now thanks to narrow minded laws he or she can never even get married to someone they naturally love because in the eyes of the public, who for some reason gets to decide who other people can marry, this couple is considered gay.

 

[te_lanus]

Better yet, a lot of these cases are discovered at birth and the parents are allowed to choose which gender and the doctors perform an operation and the child takes hormone supplements. There are cases where, when the child gets to puberty, the parents realize that they chose wrong and now the child mentally is one gender but physically another. What would god think of that.

methinks God has no problem with it as only "puts" the child into the same bracket as all those who suffer from transsexualism, and Gender identity disorder(GID). And methinks God has no problem with people who feels like this.

Me have no problem with living one day as a boy and the other day as a girl, me had a long struggle with God about it and God told me that His grace is enough and that He accepts people like me.

What would other people think of that, now thanks to narrow minded laws he or she can never even get married to someone they naturally love because in the eyes of the public, who for some reason gets to decide who other people can marry, this couple is considered gay.

methinks the church's view on people like me who suffer from GID is stoepid because God's grace is enough. me-knows me's gonna get flamed for saying this but me are going to say it. Methinks that the church doesn't like people like this as it makes a mockery of the church's view on homosexuality, me-knows (from experience) that the church say that no one is born homosexual, but Intersex and GID suffers are born that way. thus their whole notion on what Gayness for this group off people are based on "fiction" (from a lack of a better word)

Me one friend has this "problem" with the church. When she married her wife, she was a boy. they have 2 children, then he was caught by his wife wearing woman clothes, after a big fight, her wife accepted it and allowed her husband to become her wife. They have been married for 16years

PS. If me offended anybody .... oops ....... didn't do it on purpose

 

[Mr Cheese]

Better yet, a lot of these cases are discovered at birth and the parents are allowed to choose which gender and the doctors perform an operation and the child takes hormone supplements.

Like Jamie Lee Curtis, if you believe the rumors...

a Hermaphrodite is of course a marriage of intellect(Hermes) and Aphrodite (Intuition)

It is this that Crowley speaks of..when mentioning Love is the law.... but um

 

[hindupridemn]

I think God makes some people gay or transgendered and therefore it's not a sin. God may make someone gay because for some reason their soulmate had to be the same sex in this life. Transexuality exists to teach us that we are defined by our souls, not our bodies. Intersexed people should be allowed to identify as either gender or both or neither as they grow up. "Corrective" surgeries on hermaphroditism are just as barbaric as routine circumcision. I'm sure I will get flamed for this.

 

[jamaesi]

many religionists(though not all) hold a black and white, good and evil view of the world, with not much room, if any for gray-matter. not sure about other religions but muslims, jews and a majority of christians, mostly fundamentalists, view homosexuality as a sin. some say people choose to be gay in rebellion against god, others say gays are posessed by demons. either way, they make it abundantly clear that their god hates or at least dislikes gays.

my question is, if god, the creator of the universe and everything in/around it hates homosexuality, then how come he also creates/created, hermaphrodites/pseudohermaphrodites and people with chemical/hormonal imbalances????

take caster semenya for example:
Semenya withdraws from race amidst reports she's hermaphrodite - Fourth-Place Medal - OLY - Yahoo! Sports

she/he/it is neither fully male nor fully female, caster obviously had no choice in the matter since she/he was born that way so there are no excuses for choice or demons. how do you explain this? did god decide he liked to mix things up for a change? or maybe he doesnt really care much about homosexuality in the first place?

and what if this person decides on a spouse? either way he/she will be either gay or lesbian.

your answers please...

and again, i realize that many christians on this forum, and especially nowdays do not think in black and white absolutes, so if you are one of those, this question is not directed towards you.

Caster Semenya is female. She identifies as female. It is extremely disrespectful to call her a she/he/it. Ms Semenya is intersex. She is NOT a "hermaphrodite".

If Ms Semenya should marry a male, they would be in a heterosexual relationship because Ms Semenya is female.


In Islam, generally intersex conditions and transgenderism are treated as the medical conditions they are and intersex and trans individuals are encouraged to take whatever treatment plan (therapy, hormone therapy, surgery) works for them- it's even considered obligatory for them to seek treatment if they need it, especially if advised to do so by a doctor, because it's a sin to not get medical treatment for a medical condition- meaning you can't just pray for some medical condition or illness to go away, you have to go to a doctor, too. There's no "faith healing" concept in Islam- though we do believe G-d heals who he wills, you have to meet G-d halfway and go to a doctor. It's a trust in G-d but steer away from the rocks sort of thing.