Hi from Spain :)

[Debater Slayer]

Postmodernists insist that everything is tyranny and that we have an illusion of freedom where we simply choose the one that pleases us most. But they seem to lack transcendental orientation. When reading the Bible one realizes that they are wrong. And, in my opinion, I always found it a very sad vision of life...

There have been members of this forum whose views are postmodernist or influenced by that way of thinking, and most of them don't believe that everything is tyranny or lack orientation in their lives. I think you might find it interesting to engage in discussions with some of them and exchange perspectives or ask questions about each other's views.

 

[ghostofachance]

There have been members of this forum whose views are postmodernist or influenced by that way of thinking, and most of them don't believe that everything is tyranny or lack orientation in their lives. I think you might find it interesting to engage in discussions with some of them and exchange perspectives or ask questions about each other's views.

You're right, I probably should haha, hope to learn their perspective on these things ))

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am not interested in speaking with anyone that is only interested in speaking with other young people. I understand the search for love, but this isn't a dating service. Try the RF chat room instead. Some of our younger members frequent that, and they like to have fun discussions and flirt sometimes. It is not actually controlled by this site and is not officially related to us, but a lot of members go there to say things they aren't allowed to say here.

If you want to see how we have fun on the site try visiting the following section of the forum, but be warned that many of us are over forty years of age and are not looking for companionship from you:

Games / Pics / Jokes / Stories

A place for fun and games and general silliness.

www.religiousforums.com

 

[ghostofachance]

I am not interested in speaking with anyone that is only interested in speaking with other young people. I understand the search for love, but this isn't a dating service. Try the RF chat room instead. Some of our younger members frequent that, and they like to have fun discussions and flirt sometimes. It is not actually controlled by this site and is not officially related to us, but a lot of members go there to say things they aren't allowed to say here.

If you want to see how we have fun on the site try visiting the following section of the forum, but be warned that many of us are over forty years of age and are not looking for companionship from you:

Games / Pics / Jokes / Stories

A place for fun and games and general silliness.

www.religiousforums.com

I'm sorry who is this message for? On young people and flirting... I don't understand.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I guess that I don't have any proof that He exists, but the alternative is too sad and meaningless. Reading the Bible one may wonder, is there something more than different types of tyranny? What is the alternative? Spiritual freedom? How can we know if anything we study or learn is not another type of ideology? Postmodernists insist that everything is tyranny and that we have an illusion of freedom where we simply choose the one that pleases us most. But they seem to lack transcendental orientation. When reading the Bible one realizes that they are wrong. And, in my opinion, I always found it a very sad vision of life...

Welcome to RF

Perhaps some of us are more inclined to accept what is, even if it doesn't suit our wants or inclinations - given that is why I tend not to be a God and/or religious believer (too much evidence against such concepts) - and it hardly makes me any more sad than those who often seem to simply imply (or know) that humans are destined for some catastrophe (and such deserved because God said so), particularly when they might be contributing to such by their divisive beliefs and/or behaviour. Humanity is always likely to be on a path to destruction but if religions actually helped rather than hindered then I would embrace them wholeheartedly - but in my view they don't.

As to the second, why believe that one particular religious text says it all when we have so many religious beliefs to choose from? If you were born in a different country you would likely have a different religious belief after all - and one dictated to you in many instances. I just find it sad that religions still divide us in so many ways and after being in existence for so long.

 

[ghostofachance]

Welcome to RF

Perhaps some of us are more inclined to accept what is, even if it doesn't suit our wants or inclinations - given that is why I tend not to be a God and/or religious believer (too much evidence against such concepts) - and it hardly makes me any more sad than those who often seem to simply imply (or know) that humans are destined for some catastrophe (and such deserved because God said so), particularly when they might be contributing to such by their divisive beliefs and/or behaviour. Humanity is always likely to be on a path to destruction but if religions actually helped rather than hindered then I would embrace them wholeheartedly - but in my view they don't.

As to the second, why believe that one particular religious text says it all when we have so many religious beliefs to choose from? If you were born in a different country you would likely have a different religious belief after all - and one dictated to you in many instances. I just find it sad that religions still divide us in so many ways and after being in existence for so long.

Hi!

Sorry if my messaged seemed coming from a high horse, sometimes when you're on forums and messaging the tone can be misinterpreted and when I meant "sad" it didn't come from a place of me being condescending or owning the Truth of the Universe or knowing the right way to live. There are cases of people being atheists their whole lives and suddenly coming to God and religion and the opposite, people believing and then something happens in their lives and they just stop. Also there are Christians that read the Bible, pray and got to church and end up being horrible human beings, needless to say.

Of course there are many religions, but what they all have in common is that there is a higher power that puts a feeling in our minds and hearts that tells us what is good or bad. Thats why I said that of course atheists have the same moral compas as believers, but the only difference is that we know where our comes from and why we feel a certain way about certain things. Also, if I was born into another culture and religion I would still believe in God, but it would just be in a different context, I guess.

And to finish, I think that not only religion can divide humanity. There many things, ideologies, policies (social, economical), hey, even science can divide us (some still believe the Earth is flat). I think it's not the knife that's evil but the person in whose hand it is. So many have chosen to use religion and the idea of God to manipulate and kill. But in Soviet Russia religion was forbidden and 33 millions were murdered and starved to death and there was no God in the middle. About why God permits evil to happen is another topic we can speak about, haha.

Thanks for the welcoming

 

[Windwalker]

One of the things the Bible teaches us about is the way in which perceptions and actions can be prioritized. In life, we always end up prioritizing some things over others. Carl Jung said that whatever is on the top of your triangle of priorities above all other things is your God. Whether you are religious or not. And that if you have a lot of things there then you are confused.

My mom taught me to pray and taught me about God since I was little and found praying and believing quiet natural. I became an atheist when I was 15 while reading Anna Karenina and had the same existencial crisis Levin had. Came back to God myself in a couple of years and never left. It just makes so much sense for me, makes me happy, fills me with calm and peace. Couldn't imagine making sense of life and humanity without Him.

Also, I separate the Bible and the religious Institutions from God. I think, one thing is my faith and what I believe in and another is the Church and what it imposes on the believers. I enjoy going to Church and meditating, but I think that I have never spoken to a priest, nor reading the sacred texts has ever made me question my faith.

I guess that I don't have any proof that He exists, but the alternative is too sad and meaningless. Reading the Bible one may wonder, is there something more than different types of tyranny? What is the alternative? Spiritual freedom? How can we know if anything we study or learn is not another type of ideology? Postmodernists insist that everything is tyranny and that we have an illusion of freedom where we simply choose the one that pleases us most. But they seem to lack transcendental orientation. When reading the Bible one realizes that they are wrong. And, in my opinion, I always found it a very sad vision of life...

You've intrigued me. You're touching on some depths of insights and wisdom through experience I can hear here. It has a practical reality for you.

All too often we encounter the phenomenon of the "true believer", or what I call believerism, which is nothing more than a rote doctrinal allegiance to find a sense of peace and security in an uncertain world. "God said it! I believe it! That settles it for me!". Such is fear-based, 'just tell me what to believe and I'll find assurance I'm okay'. And the interesting thing about this is that for those who approached religion like this and left it to become atheists, most often that just follows with them, transferring this externalization to a new external authority to tell them what is true, reliable and trustworthy to believe in. Science and modernity replaces the Bible as that source of Authority with a capital A for them.

As for postmodernity, I would be cautious not to deem it all as an over-reaction to the systems of modernity and its self-assurances and 'tryannies'. Each level or stage has both its dignities, positive contributions it brings to the world, and its disasters, its abuses and extremes. Typically it's the latter which brings about something new online to 'transcend' them, as you wisely intuited. Postmodernism transcends modernity in many important ways, but people being people, they will weaponize it, or 'religionize' it if you prefer.

But I do agree, that spirituality is an important essential ingredient to healthy, happy, and whole living, which should be cultivated. The problem with it is, that organized religions tend to try to claim ownership on something that transcends themselves. The more dogmatic of which claim to be God's authorities here on earth, and gatekeepers to the Divine. This of course creates a great disservice to humanity, IMO.

If anything positive that postmodernity has brought forward to public awareness, or consciousness itself, is that of tolerance. Tolerance is the result of humility, realizing we don't have all the answers, which modernity more than subtly promised, and that there is a shared uncertainty which binds us all together. In our weakness we find collective strength. We can see ourselves in others, generating compassion and empathy, and resulting tolerance. Those are incidentally, the good foundations of genuine spirituality.

Of course you have those who wish to co-opt those as "I"m more tolerant than you" badges of self-righteousness, but as a good developmentalist might observe, it's not the words that they use, but the style, or the manner in which they use them that speaks to where they are really at. It's not the words, the lingo, the slogans, the quotations, nor the crosses on ones bumper stickers that determines our depth, but the ways in which we live those things. "By their fruits you shall know them".

I look forward to more discussions with you.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Hi!

Sorry if my messaged seemed coming from a high horse, sometimes when you're on forums and messaging the tone can be misinterpreted and when I meant "sad" it didn't come from a place of me being condescending or owning the Truth of the Universe or knowing the right way to live. There are cases of people being atheists their whole lives and suddenly coming to God and religion and the opposite, people believing and then something happens in their lives and they just stop. Also there are Christians that read the Bible, pray and got to church and end up being horrible human beings, needless to say.

No problem. Just that many here do seem to believe if one hasn't any religious belief and/or any belief in the soul or spirituality then they might necessarily be missing out on life. As you say, people can vary as to whatever happens with regards such beliefs, but overall, most people tend to end up with the religious beliefs they are born with - so not so much chosen.

Of course there are many religions, but what they all have in common is that there is a higher power that puts a feeling in our minds and hearts that tells us what is good or bad. Thats why I said that of course atheists have the same moral compas as believers, but the only difference is that we know where our comes from and why we feel a certain way about certain things. Also, if I was born into another culture and religion I would still believe in God, but it would just be in a different context, I guess.

Well many of us here will argue that our morality has mainly come from the evolution of our species, and that religions in effect claimed the rights over this - which I think you might agree would be unfair if true. And that the non-believers are just as moral as any believers - perhaps more so than a misguided bunch like the Taliban.

And to finish, I think that not only religion can divide humanity. There many things, ideologies, policies (social, economical), hey, even science can divide us (some still believe the Earth is flat). I think it's not the knife that's evil but the person in whose hand it is. So many have chosen to use religion and the idea of God to manipulate and kill. But in Soviet Russia religion was forbidden and 33 millions were murdered and starved to death and there was no God in the middle. About why God permits evil to happen is another topic we can speak about, haha.

Thanks for the welcoming

This is bordering on a fallacy though - we can't solve this issue because there are many other issues too. I think you would agree here, that we can solve issues independently a lot of the time - and which might affect our lives - although most of the ones that do tend to cause conflict for humans are often interrelated. The wars and deaths I have an issue with, but usually will not get involved so much in discussions, simply because I can't see how we can compare such deaths over time fairly when things have changed considerably - as to methods of killing and communications/travel made far easier in modern times, hence more deaths.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Thats so interesting that most of the people here are atheists!

Oh, I would not think that most of the people here are atheists -- but for some reason, the atheists often seem better versed in the Bible and other texts.

Welcome to the Forums. We probably won't connect much, because I am neither young nor religious (the two things you said you were looking for), but welcome anyway.

 

[ghostofachance]

You've intrigued me. You're touching on some depths of insights and wisdom through experience I can hear here. It has a practical reality for you.

All too often we encounter the phenomenon of the "true believer", or what I call believerism, which is nothing more than a rote doctrinal allegiance to find a sense of peace and security in an uncertain world. "God said it! I believe it! That settles it for me!". Such is fear-based, 'just tell me what to believe and I'll find assurance I'm okay'. And the interesting thing about this is that for those who approached religion like this and left it to become atheists, most often that just follows with them, transferring this externalization to a new external authority to tell them what is true, reliable and trustworthy to believe in. Science and modernity replaces the Bible as that source of Authority with a capital A for them.

As for postmodernity, I would be cautious not to deem it all as an over-reaction to the systems of modernity and its self-assurances and 'tryannies'. Each level or stage has both its dignities, positive contributions it brings to the world, and its disasters, its abuses and extremes. Typically it's the latter which brings about something new online to 'transcend' them, as you wisely intuited. Postmodernism transcends modernity in many important ways, but people being people, they will weaponize it, or 'religionize' it if you prefer.

But I do agree, that spirituality is an important essential ingredient to healthy, happy, and whole living, which should be cultivated. The problem with it is, that organized religions tend to try to claim ownership on something that transcends themselves. The more dogmatic of which claim to be God's authorities here on earth, and gatekeepers to the Divine. This of course creates a great disservice to humanity, IMO.

If anything positive that postmodernity has brought forward to public awareness, or consciousness itself, is that of tolerance. Tolerance is the result of humility, realizing we don't have all the answers, which modernity more than subtly promised, and that there is a shared uncertainty which binds us all together. In our weakness we find collective strength. We can see ourselves in others, generating compassion and empathy, and resulting tolerance. Those are incidentally, the good foundations of genuine spirituality.

Of course you have those who wish to co-opt those as "I"m more tolerant than you" badges of self-righteousness, but as a good developmentalist might observe, it's not the words that they use, but the style, or the manner in which they use them that speaks to where they are really at. It's not the words, the lingo, the slogans, the quotations, nor the crosses on ones bumper stickers that determines our depth, but the ways in which we live those things.

I look forward to more discussions with you.

Hello,

I think that everyone has a God, one way or another. Even people that call themselves atheists or "non-believers" have one, though they don't like to call it by that name. It's what you priorities above everything else, what you pray to and what, in some way, enslaves you. For some its money or their career, for others its sex and vanity, I don't know. It can be so many things. I just think that if your God isn't something transcendent then you risk your God being something mundane.

Also I consider God to be the Ideal Human. I don't know if it makes sense. Some Ideal to aspire to, that isn't myself (forever imperfect and able to trick myself into not doing what needs to be done) or another human (because no one is perfect and any mentor or idol can fall of his or her pedestal and disappoint you in any given moment, or you can end up outgrowing them). So when you Ideal is something or someone that is perfect, benevolent and, in a way, unobtainable, you will never cease working on yourself. The bad part is that any Ideal ends up being a judge. But the good part is that it's an honest and that it makes you have an objective. And a person with an objective that can evaluate his own progress is a very happy person. So for me it's something like: having an Ideal = being a happy person.

I love the part where you mention tolerance and humility. It reminds me of Matthew 5: Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. I've always found "poor in spirit" those who fell so low that they have lost their pride, and so, they've turned humble. And when one is humble, he is open for any kind of revelation. I like, also, how you clearly differentiate between faith and religious organizations. I find that many non-believers tend to mix those up.

It was Søren Kierkegaard who said "both disbelieve and superstition are anguish for faith". He also said that the true believer has doubts. Doubt is an essential element of faith, a foundation. In other words, believing or having faith that God exists without ever having doubted such existence would not be a faith worth having. For example, it does not require faith to believe that a pencil or a table exist, since one can see and touch them. Likewise, to believe or have faith in God is to know that there is no perceptual or other access to him, and still have faith.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Hey, I'm new on this forum. I'm from Spain and I'm currently studying from home the Bible. I'm a Christian Orthodox and I have been religious since I was little. I think I'm the most religious person in my family, my parents believe in God but they don't read the Bible nor go to the Church or anything. They are very open minded. The friends I have are very open minded too, but only one is actually religious and is interested in theology. Others are not, we're "young", we're all around 30, so they respect my interest in religion but I feel super lonely because I have no one to discuss with my studies, stuff that I have read or heard... So I couldn't find any forums on theology in Spain and this is the one that popped up when I searched in Google.

I guess I made this on hope to find young people that are interested in discussing the Bible and religion in general. I'd love to read the Quran and the Torah when I finish the Bible. Also, after finishing Exodus I found myself listening to the Jordan Peterson's series on it on Youtube with Dr. Os Guiness, Dr. Douglas Hedley, Dr. James Orr, Dr. Larry Arnn, Gregg Hurwitz, Ben Shapiro, Dr. Dennis Prager, Dr. Stephen Blackwood, Jonathan Pageau.

Sorry for my English, not my first language.
Have a nice day

Karina

Hello, and welcome to RF. I hope you enjoy your time on the forum.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Hey, I'm new on this forum. I'm from Spain and I'm currently studying from home the Bible. I'm a Christian Orthodox and I have been religious since I was little. I think I'm the most religious person in my family, my parents believe in God but they don't read the Bible nor go to the Church or anything. They are very open minded. The friends I have are very open minded too, but only one is actually religious and is interested in theology. Others are not, we're "young", we're all around 30, so they respect my interest in religion but I feel super lonely because I have no one to discuss with my studies, stuff that I have read or heard... So I couldn't find any forums on theology in Spain and this is the one that popped up when I searched in Google.

I guess I made this on hope to find young people that are interested in discussing the Bible and religion in general. I'd love to read the Quran and the Torah when I finish the Bible. Also, after finishing Exodus I found myself listening to the Jordan Peterson's series on it on Youtube with Dr. Os Guiness, Dr. Douglas Hedley, Dr. James Orr, Dr. Larry Arnn, Gregg Hurwitz, Ben Shapiro, Dr. Dennis Prager, Dr. Stephen Blackwood, Jonathan Pageau.

Sorry for my English, not my first language.
Have a nice day

Karina

Hi. You sound like an interesting person. Welcome.

 

[Windwalker]

Hello,

I think that everyone has a God, one way or another. Even people that call themselves atheists or "non-believers" have one, though they don't like to call it by that name. It's what you priorities above everything else, what you pray to and what, in some way, enslaves you. For some its money or their career, for others its sex and vanity, I don't know. It can be so many things. I just think that if your God isn't something transcendent then you risk your God being something mundane.

I like the way Paul Tillich termed religion as one's "Ultimate Concern". In this sense what you say is correct. Even the atheist has something that they place as their ultimate concern. I throw into this also and say that "God" is one's view of Ultimate Reality, and everyone has a view of that, even if that view is a purely materialistic, reductionist, everything is physics and nothing more view.

Like everyone else, that is how faith expresses itself in them in their objects of belief. It is still faith, not merely a "lack of belief". There is still a view that is held about the ultimate truth in some fashion or another. It's faith expressed as atheism is all.

Also I consider God to be the Ideal Human. I don't know if it makes sense. Some Ideal to aspire to, that isn't myself (forever imperfect and able to trick myself into not doing what needs to be done) or another human (because no one is perfect and any mentor or idol can fall of his or her pedestal and disappoint you in any given moment, or you can end up outgrowing them).

I would say from a Christian perspective you might see Jesus as the Ideal Human, in that he represents the Divine fully realized in the human form, or our humanity. The Incarnate Christ, is the ideal in other words. God is the Infinite Source, which pours or empties itself into creation, and the ideal human is the one which transcends or goes beyond simply our biology and awakens to our innate divinity which arises from the Source.

This to me is what Enlightenment means. Which is how I understand the meaning of the Christian term "Salvation". It is awakening to the Light that is within ourselves and the whole of creation itself. It is that Oneness that is realized beyond the eye of the flesh, or the human ego.

So when you Ideal is something or someone that is perfect, benevolent and, in a way, unobtainable, you will never cease working on yourself. The bad part is that any Ideal ends up being a judge.

The fact you say this, says to me you've done a great deal of interior work, or introspection. It's that God as the inner critic, a projection of our own egos as God trying to parent ourselves without skill, that we beat ourselves with. "Oh, wretched man that I am! Bad me! Bad!", as if that somehow makes one bit of difference at all.

That is simply the ego trying to shame itself, an act of false humility, which in time we learn is simply a game the ego continues to play to keep itself in control, as opposed to us, our spiritual will that is, dissolving that through surrender. The ego is tenacious, and hides itself through spirituality in these ways that makes us think we are doing spiritual work, when it's really just an avoidance. "I am good, really. See the penance I do? I throw ashes on my head even."

But the good part is that it's an honest and that it makes you have an objective. And a person with an objective that can evaluate his own progress is a very happy person. So for me it's something like: having an Ideal = being a happy person.

A word of caution here. While having an image of what we would become as a goal, we have to be mindful not to make Enlightenment or transcendence a matter of achievement. That's a trap of the ego. Through effort, we attain God. Through force we achieve the Divine.

It's a very paradoxical thing. While we need to make an effort, that effort is to get out of the way to not make an effort. We strive to not strive. We work to not work. We learn to unlearn. I often say that meditation is simply the practice that teaches us how to simply allow what is already fully there within us, to flow out of us, without effort. I look at it as like making an effort to remove the debris that is preventing the river from flowing. It's not attaining the river. It's unblocking it.

I love the part where you mention tolerance and humility. It reminds me of Matthew 5: Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. I've always found "poor in spirit" those who fell so low that they have lost their pride, and so, they've turned humble. And when one is humble, he is open for any kind of revelation.

Yes. It's like that story about the Zen master with a guest who comes and sits at his table, and the master begins pouring tea into his cup for him.

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen. Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!” Like this cup, Nan-in said, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?​

Genuine humility makes us open, willing to be taught. That's not an easy place for those who have tried to fill their own cup all the time to come to. That is to me what the meaning of surrender means.

I like, also, how you clearly differentiate between faith and religious organizations. I find that many non-believers tend to mix those up.

Indeed. You'll find that topic debated endlessly around here.

It was Søren Kierkegaard who said "both disbelieve and superstition are anguish for faith". He also said that the true believer has doubts. Doubt is an essential element of faith, a foundation.

Another deeply insightful realization. Doubt serves faith. Faith without doubt is a weak faith. Again, another saying from Zen comes to mind here.

Great doubt, great awakening; ​

Little doubt, little awakening;​

No doubt, no awakening.”​

The "true believer" has the least faith of all. They substitute beliefs for a lack of faith. Beliefs are all they have, and will fight tenaciously to preserves them. Faith on the other hand can not only face challenges to beliefs, it welcomes them. Doubt purifies faith through ridding itself of impurities, like bad or outdated beliefs.

In other words, believing or having faith that God exists without ever having doubted such existence would not be a faith worth having. For example, it does not require faith to believe that a pencil or a table exist, since one can see and touch them. Likewise, to believe or have faith in God is to know that there is no perceptual or other access to him, and still have faith.

I do believe that at a certain point, faith can be replaced by actual experience, when it comes to spiritual matters or faith in God. What then remains is finding better ways to attempt to talk about it, and theological ideas certainly have room for doubt. There is a way to access or apprehend the Divine however, and that is through actual experience. However, that transcends religious views altogether.

A last quote from a Zen poet comes to mind here. And by they way, I'm not a Zen Buddhist, it's just coincidence all my quotes today are coming from them.

There are many paths that lead from the foot of the mountain, but at its peak we all gaze at the single bright moon.​

​

There is the theological God, and then there is God.

 

[Heyo]

Oh, wow. Wouldn't have thought that most people in a religious forum would be atheists haha, good to know! But maybe still have read the Bible and have an opinion on different passages?

Not most but many and not all unbelievers identify as atheists. And there are also very divers groups of believers, different denominations of Christianity, Jews, Muslim, Buddhists, Hindu, pagans of different colours and we all get along (more or less).