Hi....

[NoGuru]

Not sure what to say on a religious forum. Studied most religions, grew up Christian and still cling to the morals... in some way. I've read part of the Quran, studied Buddhism, currently reading about the eastern religions.

Can't offer much except perhaps a voice of reason.

 

[Komatose]

Is there anything you're hoping to accomplish here or just pure curiosity?

 

[NoGuru]

Recommended by a friend on another forum I help moderate. We don't allow religious discussions (due to the flame wars that typically ensure), and I love religious discussions; rather, intellectual religious discussions. Curiosity for now, hopefully personal growth and understanding.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Welcome, NoGuru. IMHO, you have come to the right place.

 

[NoGuru]

Thanks for the welcome.

Question for you @Aupmanyav, how can you be both advaitist and atheist?

I'm imagining it's due to the meaning of the word part "the-ist"? Seems rather paradoxical, although is not everything?

 

[George-ananda]

Question for you @Aupmanyav, how can you be both advaitist and atheist?

Just to let you know, I think he can't but he does anyway.

 

[Laika]

Recommended by a friend on another forum I help moderate. We don't allow religious discussions (due to the flame wars that typically ensure), and I love religious discussions; rather, intellectual religious discussions. Curiosity for now, hopefully personal growth and understanding.

Hey NoGuru. most discussions here are pretty civil and given the amount of differences and diversity of beliefs, we get along pretty well. The only ones to watch out for relate to "whether Islam can be blamed for stuff?" and "what is the definition of atheism?" as those topics get out of hand usually pretty quickly. That said they are mostly still pretty mild based on experiences Ive had on other forums so its worthing joining in a few times before it gets boring.

Anyways, welcome to the forums. I hope you enjoy your time here and that youll stick around and get alot out of being here.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not sure what to say on a religious forum. Studied most religions, grew up Christian and still cling to the morals... in some way. I've read part of the Quran, studied Buddhism, currently reading about the eastern religions.

Can't offer much except perhaps a voice of reason.

Reason?
Oh, that sort of thing just won't do here.
But anyway....greetings!

Now, let's all have some.....

It's not every day that we get trifle!

 

[sun rise]

Welcome to RF.

 

[Aupmanyav]

..how can you be both advaitist and atheist?

I have explained it many a times to newbies and old-timers alike. What else can I be? Being an 'advaitist' (non-dualist) removes the possibility of my subscribing to any second entity.

Just to let you know, I think he can't but he does anyway.

I do because I can. Tell me, in what way it is not correct (of course, not in the 'introduction' forum).

 

[George-ananda]

I have explained it many a times to newbies and old-timers alike. What else can I be? Being an 'advaitist' (non-dualist) removes the possibility of my subscribing to any second entity.I do because I can. Tell me, in what way it is not correct (of course, not in the 'introduction' forum).

This discussion has been done before. I was just pointing out the obvious to a confused newbie who probably understands Brahman as sat-cit-ananda.

 

[Terese]

Pranam NoGuruji! Welcome to the forum

 

[NoGuru]

Thanks all for the welcome

Now then;

What else can I be? Being an 'advaitist' (non-dualist) removes the possibility of my subscribing to any second entity.I do because I can. Tell me, in what way it is not correct (of course, not in the 'introduction' forum).

This discussion has been done before. I was just pointing out the obvious to a confused newbie who probably understands Brahman as sat-cit-ananda.

So, you gents (or ladies?) will need to point me in the direction of previous discussions on this. I read both the explanation for Advaita and Satcitananda and to be honest, I'm not seeing the difference. This is not to say there is none of course, but having been raised in a school of thought much different, the finer details seem foreign, no pun intended.

You are correct that I would understand them as interchangeable. In my studies I have come to understand the Brahman to be same as many Buddhist philosophies. All this universe is one great energy and we are that. The same as a wave is not a separate function of the ocean, it is something the whole ocean is doing, seen in a smaller context. The path to realization being removing our separate ego and connecting to that source.

So, how that gets split into different sects, I'm not immediately grasping.

 

[George-ananda]

So, you gents (or ladies?) will need to point me in the direction of previous discussions on this. I read both the explanation for Advaita and Satcitananda and to be honest, I'm not seeing the difference. This is not to say there is none of course, but having been raised in a school of thought much different, the finer details seem foreign, no pun intended.

I, as one of the two gents, should apologize for confusing you by not giving a more complete telling of the issue. See, normally here more advanced discussions are not done in this 'Welcome' DIR.

Here is an expanded understanding. Brahman is said to be said to be sat-cit-ananda (being-awareness-bliss) in standard Advaita thought. You are correct in not seeing really a difference between the two because there really isn't.

Now what originally confused you is that our friend Aup said he was Advaita and a strong atheist. Aup's views are maverick views and not mainstream Advaita. The mainstream Advaita people would say that Brahman is pure consciousness. Aup, in what we mainstreamers see as wrong, is a materialist-atheist and that Brahman is just energy or whatever.

You are correct that I would understand them as interchangeable. In my studies I have come to understand the Brahman to be same as many Buddhist philosophies. All this universe is one great energy and we are that. The same as a wave is not a separate function of the ocean, it is something the whole ocean is doing, seen in a smaller context. The path to realization being removing our separate ego and connecting to that source.

So, how that gets split into different sects, I'm not immediately grasping.

Do you understand Brahman to be Consciousness or just energy?

Advaita: Consciousness is primary and matter/energy is a derivative of Consciousness
Aupvaita: Matter/energy is primary and consciousness is a derivative of matter/energy

It might take time for me to make myself understood. I appreciate your interest.

 

[NoGuru]

Do you understand Brahman to be Consciousness or just energy?

IMHO I'm not sure there is a difference... All this universe is energy, and all One. Uni (meaning one) and Verse (meaning song). Universe: one song being played. Matter is just energy at a slow vibration.

Consciousness requires energy, but one could say that the reverse is true. This kind of goes back to "What do you feel when you say "I" " Is it the consciousness or the energy?

If you were to create something of yourself... let's say you cut off your arm to give to another, was it you that begot the arm? Or is the arm you? Seems (with all respect) like a separation of ideologies for the sake of separation. A philosophical question that drove division.

Advaita: Consciousness is primary and matter/energy is a derivative of Consciousness
Aupvaita: Matter/energy is primary and consciousness is a derivative of matter/energy.

This makes much more sense

 

[George-ananda]

This makes much more sense

I'm not clear. Are you more Aupvaita or Advaita? I am thinking you are more Aupvaita from what you said.

Just curious. Do you believe in reincarnation?

 

[NoGuru]

I'm not sure the division between those matters IMHO. That's like starting a church of the chicken and the egg, and then being so upset you start another of the egg and the chicken. Trying to pinpoint the exact source of God, seems a bit like a wild goose chase from the human experience standpoint. I know I am made of energy (all matter is), I know I have consciousness, so trying to determine which is God and which is not... Is it the salt content that makes the ocean what it is or the water? Are they not one?

Re: reincarnation
Well, I've known people who had inexplicable experiences that would suggest reincarnation of the individual, but if I take a drop of water out of a cup, put it back and take another drop out, is it the same drop? Is not the idea of the Brahman that all energy is that life force? If something dies and returns to the energy it once was and then the same source of energy spawns another experience, I can't say that individuality is maintained. I've read many an ancient script that speaks of maintaining your individuality from life to life, but I can't tell you with any certainty this is possible. I've not experienced this.

I believe in it in the same way as the water analogy. A drop is removed and returned, then another drop is pulled out. Same water, but not the same drop as before. The ever spanning power and massiveness of the "soul" could contain all such experiences, but whether the same drop is pulled back out...?

 

[George-ananda]

I'm not sure the division between those matters IMHO. That's like starting a church of the chicken and the egg, and then being so upset you start another of the egg and the chicken. Trying to pinpoint the exact source of God, seems a bit like a wild goose chase from the human experience standpoint. I know I am made of energy (all matter is), I know I have consciousness, so trying to determine which is God and which is not... Is it the salt content that makes the ocean what it is or the water? Are they not one?

Re: reincarnation
Well, I've known people who had inexplicable experiences that would suggest reincarnation of the individual, but if I take a drop of water out of a cup, put it back and take another drop out, is it the same drop? Is not the idea of the Brahman that all energy is that life force? If something dies and returns to the energy it once was and then the same source of energy spawns another experience, I can't say that individuality is maintained. I've read many an ancient script that speaks of maintaining your individuality from life to life, but I can't tell you with any certainty this is possible. I've not experienced this.

I believe in it in the same way as the water analogy. A drop is removed and returned, then another drop is pulled out. Same water, but not the same drop as before. The ever spanning power and massiveness of the "soul" could contain all such experiences, but whether the same drop is pulled back out...?

Well, thank you for the clarifications. It seems we have different beliefs. I believe we have a reincarnating soul that lasts as a continuing individual for many lifetimes and eventually merges with Brahman; call the mergence Nirvana/Moksha. The matter and energy of the body can not create subjective conscious experience but consciousness must incarnate matter for it to be alive. It would seem a little depressing to me to think all the spiritual progress I make internally is annihilated by death.

 

[NoGuru]

It seems we have different beliefs.

If everyone had the same beliefs, life would be no fun

I believe we have a reincarnating soul that lasts as a continuing individual for many lifetimes and eventually merges with Brahman; call the mergence Nirvana/Moksha.

And you may be correct. My analogies only express what I've come to reason, and I'm often wrong about a great many things

It would seem a little depressing to me to think all the spiritual progress I make internally is annihilated by death.

Well sure, like making a sand castle and having it washed away by the sea.

However, let's say for a just a moment that everything in this universe is one... it's all one. Your experience is not washed away upon death, but becomes a part of the larger experience. Put your finger in a glass of water to see if it's hot or cold. Your whole body doesn't need to go into the glass, just your finger tip. When you take the fingertip out you've gained all the experience it had and now you, the larger consciousness that is you, is aware of what that finger experienced. Perhaps the finger considers itself a separate entity, but it's still a part of the larger whole. This is perhaps our experience, small extensions of the greater consciousness, experiencing things one at a time and returning that experience to the larger whole.

Again, I'm often wrong

 

[George-ananda]

However, let's say for a just a moment that everything in this universe is one... it's all one. Your experience is not washed away upon death, but becomes a part of the larger experience. Put your finger in a glass of water to see if it's hot or cold. Your whole body doesn't need to go into the glass, just your finger tip. When you take the fingertip out you've gained all the experience it had and now you, the larger consciousness that is you, is aware of what that finger experienced. Perhaps the finger considers itself a separate entity, but it's still a part of the larger whole. This is perhaps our experience, small extensions of the greater consciousness, experiencing things one at a time and returning that experience to the larger whole.

Well another difference we may have is that (after investigation and consideration) I like Gurus in all fields be it chemistry, physics or eastern spirituality. I would never have come up with my understandings in any of these fields by just doing my own thinking. I learn from the best that have gone before. I would never have come up with Advaita thinking on my own.

Again, I'm often wrong

Your humility is endearing.