Hindu caste system

[Spiderman]

So I found out from some Hindus here that they don't like the websites I've been going to to study Hinduism.

So rather than google the caste system, I figure I'll just ask Hindus here to explain how they feel about it.

The only thing I know about the caste system is reading about The untouchables in a National Geographic, and some things I heard from a Franciscan Friar I knew who was from India.

He made it sound like the discrimination in America, is a comfortable cakewalk, compared to the discrimination he's seen in India.

However, beings that he was a penitent Catholic Friar, he may have had some very unfair bias.

 

[Kirran]

Very big system of social stratification endemic across religious boundaries in India and other South Asian countries. Individual castes, which one might think of akin to tribes or sub-ethnicities, might be Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or even a mixture. Generally, particular castes will follow particular religious traditions as well as livelihoods. For example, Iyengars (a Tamil Brahmin caste) follow the Srivaishnava tradition promulgated by Ramanuja.

The caste system is indeed supported by some streams of Hinduism, although it is also challenged by many Hindu figures. Similarly, there are Muslim thinkers who find ways to validate the caste system through Islamic ideology, as there are many who proclaim against it. Generally speaking, systems of caste segregation and discrimination are perpetuated in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc as a result of the sheer weight of tradition, rather than any particular ideological support.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thank you for this. (Not reading an anti-Hindu website first.)

The caste system of India is a social construct and runs through all religions there, including Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity. Very few, if any, religious people support it. The original intent was more like the guilds of Europe ... classification by occupation. There is nothing at all wrong with the caste system. It is caste based discrimination that is the problem. It is slowly changing, as people wake up to stop generalising to categorise people.

It's also similar to the class system of the west, which also has it's critics.

 

[Kirran]

The original intent was more like the guilds of Europe ... classification by occupation. There is nothing at all wrong with the caste system.

I suppose I would quibble a little here - I think often it's been people moving from one area to another and not being accepted by locals for intermarriage, and becoming endogamous, or vice versa - people not wanting their bloodline polluted. I know of one dude who says that it's the same mentality which results in the traditional shame on widow remarriage (possible impurity of bloodline).

Then particular occupations can come on top of that - for example, Dom people spreading throughout India (and even as far as Europe!) have taken on different occupations in different areas, but have nevertheless remained endogamous on account of stigmatisation by locals. For example, Dom people in Varanasi run the burning ghats.

Chicken or egg, maybe.

I guess also, if there's anything wrong with the caste system, even before looking at discrimination, it does severely limit people's freedoms to a) marry who they want to marry and b) do the job they want to do.

 

[Vinayaka]

I guess also, if there's anything wrong with the caste system, even before looking at discrimination, it does severely limit people's freedoms to a) marry who they want to marry and b) do the job they want to do.

At one time, sure. Not so much these days.

 

[Kirran]

At one time, sure. Not so much these days.

Yeah, I guess. At least in some places. As you and I both know, India is absurdly heterogenous!

 

[Vinayaka]

Yeah, I guess. At least in some places. As you and I both know, India is absurdly heterogenous!

My Sri Lankan friends are pretty rigid, but then there are only two castes here. There have been several marriages to westerners or other Hindus (non-Sri Lankan) though, but only second generation. So in one generation it's changed substantially.

 

[shunyadragon]

I heard a visiting guru describe western society when asked. He said, "It is has a very strong caste system with social, racial and cultural untouchables."

 

[Kapalika]

The caste system that tends to come to everyone's mind was mostly a corruption of a totally different system. There were just 4 castes originally and it wasn't based on blood or birth. I've heard/read from some sources that it was done by Brahmins for nepotistic means, some others say the Muslims did it to oppress the Hindus when they conquered parts of India. I really don't know when it changed and who did it but as it was in the most recent centuries is surely isn't what it was originally, based on ancient accounts.

 

[atanu]

So I found out from some Hindus here that they don't like the websites I've been going to to study Hinduism.

So rather than google the caste system, I figure I'll just ask Hindus here to explain how they feel about it.

The only thing I know about the caste system is reading about The untouchables in a National Geographic, and some things I heard from a Franciscan Friar I knew who was from India.

He made it sound like the discrimination in America, is a comfortable cakewalk, compared to the discrimination he's seen in India.

However, beings that he was a penitent Catholic Friar, he may have had some very unfair bias.
View attachment 21631

Caste is a misnomer. It is derived from 'varna', which means veil (to cover, to envelop). Varna is my own veil which hides the truth of my own infinite Brahman nature from me. It is for me to understand and work in association with the guru (teacher) to root out the veil to attain the truth of "You art That".

But it does not work this way all the time. We like to look elsewhere for our perceived ills. So, it comes to "I am a brahmin -- a higher being, relative to that fellow who is a lowly vaishya". It is a problem of ignorance, of ego.

Spoiler: More

Hindu scriptures acknowledge different levels of knowledge that guide people towards action. The Brahman, pure consciousness, is beyond ignorance or knowledge and is absolute transparent. Brahman is veiled in minds of living beings in different ways according to their knowledge-action. This veil can have different colours. The word for 'Veil' in Hinduism is 'varna'.

Varna (Hinduism) - Wikipedia

Varna is a Sanskrit term varṇa (वर्णः). It is derived from the root vṛ, meaning "to cover, to envelop, count, classify consider, describe or choose" (compare vṛtra).[14]

The word appears in the Rigveda, where it means "colour, outward appearance, exterior, form, figure or shape".[3] The word means "color, tint, dye or pigment" in the Mahabharata. Varna contextually means "colour, race, tribe, species, kind, sort, nature, character, quality, property" of an object or people in some Vedic and medieval texts.[3] Varna refers to four social classes in the Manusmriti.[3][4]

​

Now one may have a very light veil and the reality of transparent light of Brahman is very clear to this one being. Or one may have heavy dark veil, which hides the reality and light of Brahman altogether for this being.

In Hinduism it is taken for granted that every living being's ultimate goal is 'Moksha' (salvation). With that goal in mind, it is for a Guru (teacher) and oneself to judge as to one's 'varna' type and decide most suitable education and action paths.

In Gita, Shri Krishna says "I am all the varna". So, for a true spiritual person there should be no animosity for any varna.

So, to summarise. First, the 'varna' understanding is for one's own application. But as living beings we have a tendency to shirk responsibility for our own state and point elsewhere for the perceived problems. Second, as per Hindu scriptures, all varnas are from God itself. So, there cannot be any hatred in minds of true God lover.

 

[Kirran]

My Sri Lankan friends are pretty rigid, but then there are only two castes here. There have been several marriages to westerners or other Hindus (non-Sri Lankan) though, but only second generation. So in one generation it's changed substantially.

Do you mean Tamil and Sinhala? There are castes within the Tamils, I think?

Also, of course there are people from the 'right families' and 'wrong families' just like many people in the West say! (my girlfriend's parents are from Sri Lanka :O)

 

[Vinayaka]

Do you mean Tamil and Sinhala? There are castes within the Tamils, I think?

Also, of course there are people from the 'right families' and 'wrong families' just like many people in the West say! (my girlfriend's parents are from Sri Lanka :O)

Just Tamil. Here, only Vellalar, and Brahmin. The poorer castes were unable to get out. But I speak in generalities also, and it's not something anyone would put on the forefront.

 

[Kirran]

Just Tamil. Here, only Vellalar, and Brahmin. The poorer castes were unable to get out. But I speak in generalities also, and it's not something anyone would put on the forefront.

Oh, I see!

I think Chellapaswami was Vellalar.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh, I see!

I think Chellapaswami was Vellalar.

So was Yogaswami. Kadaitswami wasn't though. Nearly all Sri Lankan Tamils are. It's the farmer caste. The other castes are Brahmin, and the Indian Tamils who came as indentured labour for the British tea estates.

 

[Kirran]

So was Yogaswami. Kadaitswami wasn't though. Nearly all Sri Lankan Tamils are. It's the farmer caste. The other castes are Brahmin, and the Indian Tamils who came as indentured labour for the British tea estates.

Kadaitswami was an Indian, right? A Malayali, I think?

Wouldn't mind heading out to Sri Lanka sometime. I'd like to see Nepal and Kashmir too.

 

[Vinayaka]

Kadaitswami was an Indian, right? A Malayali, I think?

Wouldn't mind heading out to Sri Lanka sometime. I'd like to see Nepal and Kashmir too.

Kannada, if I remember correctly. Certainly left from Bangalore.