Hindu Monotheism

[Marcion]

I don’t think Jesus ever went to India, rather India went to him via the Silk Roads and Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean trade routes. If that’s the case though they may seem like a stretch, I think it’s entirely plausible that over centuries the story of one would morph into the other. Of course there would be some differences over all that time.

I find it mysterious how a Jewish person could have taught this if he had no connection to some kind of eastern spiritual philosohy or even a guru. I suppose we will never know how it really happened historically. I think Jews see Yeshua as the founder of a dangerous cult that was into scorcery. Such a reaction is quite common with people who know nothing about tantra.

 

[Kirran]

I find it mysterious how a Jewish person could have taught this if he had no connection to some kind of eastern spiritual philosohy or even a guru. I suppose we will never know how it really happened historically. I think Jews see Yeshua as the founder of a dangerous cult that was into scorcery. Such a reaction is quite common with people who know nothing about tantra.

Well maybe he discovered the same eternal truths within himself as did teachers elsewhere in the world.

 

[duvduv]

The Rig Veda speaks of multiple deities. You can interpret them as all being manifestations of One, but that is an interpretation. A plain reading of the text gives a polytheistic worldview. I am a Shakta, I worship Maa Kali as Supreme. I view the Vedas as coming ultimately from Her, and through the Vedas we see Her offering praises to diverse manifestations of Her Shakti. (Her energy, Her indwelling power that makes all actions possible.)

Am I a monotheist or a polytheist? It all depends on what particular angle I am looking at the issue from. It isn't an either/or sort of thing in my view. Others will differ in opinion.

I guess we're getting into various linguistic gymnastics. Is Maa Kali to you the same as Brahman/Vishnu as the Supreme Creator but just with a different name? Are the Vedic deities merely manifestations but in Sanskrit described as "deities" rather than "energies" or "emanations"? In Kabbalah there is a tree of different divine emanations, but these are not independently willed beings. For example the top is called Crown, followed by Understanding on the expansive side of the tree and Knowledge on the restrictive side. They are not beings an not even angels. Is this similar to what Vedism had in mind? Did Vedism have the concept of created angels?

 

[Marcion]

Well maybe he discovered the same eternal truths within himself as did teachers elsewhere in the world.

That was also my consideration, but I'm not sure if that is the case. Guru's generally don't diverge too far from the culture they are born in.

 

[von bek]

@duvduv

Yes, Kali is Brahman, She is Atman. Everything that exists is Her, She is consciousness, matter, space, and time. She is the One and She is also the many.

 

[duvduv]

Was this a teaching in the Vedas regstfinr Kali as Brahman/Ishwara? Are the divas like angels? Why is it necessary to recognize God by different personalities and names if he is beyond it and can be recognized without statues and forms whivj are by definition limitations?!

 

[LuisDantas]

Was this a teaching in the Vedas regstfinr Kali as Brahman/Ishwara?

What is that verb again? There seems to be a typo.

Are the divas like angels?

Devas, you mean? In some senses, certainly. But they are far more transcendental as well.

Why is it necessary to recognize God by different personalities and names if he is beyond it and can be recognized without statues and forms whivj are by definition limitations?!

Multiplicity of aspects is not so much "necessary" as it is "incredibly convenient". Far too much to be neglected.

 

[Kirran]

Was this a teaching in the Vedas regstfinr Kali as Brahman/Ishwara? Are the divas like angels? Why is it necessary to recognize God by different personalities and names if he is beyond it and can be recognized without statues and forms whivj are by definition limitations?!

Dude, you still don't seem to be listening.

The vast majority of people have no real relation to the Vedas. Many actively disavow them. The life of Ramakrishna, or Yogaswami, or many of the other popular teachers, is widely seen as easily as being as impactful a testament of the divine as any scripture could be.

Devas, angels - depends. Parts of one wider crowd maybe.

Well, you're saying they're limitations. That's cos you haven't tried it.

 

[LuisDantas]

I will have to ask for your forgiveness, @duvduv , but for all that you may be sincere and well meaning, it really looks like that you are looking at Hinduism and attempting to find an Abrahamic-styled doctrine in drag somewhere within it.

Hinduism is not Abrahamic. And if I dare say it, Hinduism is not meant to be Abrahamic either. That may sound rude, but it probably should not. An elm is not meant to be an olive tree. Hinduism is not meant to be a close match for Abrahamic faith expectations. Everything should be in harmony to itself, not necessarily to something of another nature.

Peace, brother.

 

[duvduv]

Sorry, the typo was supposed to be the word "regarding".

What is that verb again? There seems to be a typo.




Devas, you mean? In some senses, certainly. But they are far more transcendental as well.




Multiplicity of aspects is not so much "necessary" as it is "incredibly convenient". Far too much to be neglected.

 

[Kirran]

Some people say that Kali is the Brahman to Tara's Ishwara also - hence Kali naked and all-black, vs Tara with a skin around her and in dark blue.

 

[LuisDantas]

I get the sense that the exact relationship between the various Devas and particularly between any specific Devas and Brahman and Ishwara are largely, and probably unavoidably, a matter of favoring some interpretation among a fair variety of defensable ones.

More than that, I don't think that it is at all a big deal to shuffle, pick and choose, even randomly, as long as the inspiration for practice is sound and genuine.

If there is an objective truth about the exact nature, numbers and relative standing of the Devas that would make all other takes "false", it is neither self-evident nor of clear significance or even benefit. It is not for Hindus to be the accountants of divine goods.

I know that many people expect to find an objective or at least explicit truth about such matters in doctrine. I just don't think that Hinduism will be very compliant to such an expectation, although it is likely that very specific sects might.

 

[Vinayaka]

I know that many people expect to find an objective or at least explicit truth about such matters in doctrine. I just don't think that Hinduism will be very compliant to such an expectation, although it is likely that very specific sects might.

I've been taught that within the sushumna current (where kundalini rises) there are 16 separate smaller currents, each taking a route to the top. I think Hindus and Buddhists intuitively understand this, hence don't see religion as a competition about who is right. In fact, that thought is quite foreign.

 

[Kirran]

I've been taught that within the sushumna current (where kundalini rises) there are 16 separate smaller currents, each taking a route to the top. I think Hindus and Buddhists intuitively understand this, hence don't see religion as a competition about who is right. In fact, that thought is quite foreign.

Is it like, one current for each religion? Or "way of doing things"?

 

[Vinayaka]

Is it like, one current for each religion? Or "way of doing things"?

I have no idea really, just suspicions. You?

 

[Kirran]

I have no idea really, just suspicions. You?

I dunno, maybe it's just a way of explaining it. 16 seems a very precise number

 

[Vinayaka]

I dunno, maybe it's just a way of explaining it. 16 seems a very precise number

Indeed, but the main point I get is that we're not the only ones, the chosen people. It helps with tolerance, as does not knowing just who is valid or invalid. The 'I'm right and you're wrong' mindset isn't conducive to spiritual progress, tolerance, or a ton of other things this planet and its peoples need.

 

[Kirran]

Indeed, but the main point I get is that we're not the only ones, the chosen people. It helps with tolerance, as does not knowing just who is valid or invalid. The 'I'm right and you're wrong' mindset isn't conducive to spiritual progress, tolerance, or a ton of other things this planet and its peoples need.

Straight up V-dada.

 

[atanu]

I guess we're getting into various linguistic gymnastics. Is Maa Kali to you the same as Brahman/Vishnu as the Supreme Creator but just with a different name? Are the Vedic deities merely manifestations but in Sanskrit described as "deities" rather than "energies" or "emanations"? In Kabbalah there is a tree of different divine emanations, but these are not independently willed beings. For example the top is called Crown, followed by Understanding on the expansive side of the tree and Knowledge on the restrictive side. They are not beings an not even angels. Is this similar to what Vedism had in mind? Did Vedism have the concept of created angels?

My understanding is that at the level of Gurus (enlightened teachers) of Hindu dharma, the Vedanta is taken as the highest teaching. The three main schools of non-dualism, qualified monism, and dualism and most other schools agree on the Prasthanatrayi as foundational.

Prasthanatrayi - Wikipedia
...

All agree that Brahman is the truth of the nature of knowledge (consciousness), boundless, and bliss. All that is known directly or through report is pervaded by Brahman and is on account of Brahman. It is our cognition power. It is beginning-less, has no form and no name yet all names and forms proceed for it.

There is also a key Vedic teaching
"To what is One, sages give many a title / they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan."
– Rigveda 1.164.46


The idea that there can be and are plural perspectives for the same divine or spiritual principle repeats in the Vedic texts. And this thought is very strongly enshrined in most schools of Hinduism. So, all deities, of Rig Veda or of folk culture are essentially Brahman. Different deities probably were conceptualised to depict certain particular aspects of the infinite consciousness, which however is the essence of whatever can be conceived. This is reflected in Rig Veda:

You at your birth are Varuna, O Agni. When you are kindled, you are Mitra. In you, O son of strength, all gods are centered. You are Indra to the mortal who brings oblation. You are Aryaman, when you are regarded as having the mysterious names of maidens, O Self-sustainer.​

— Rigveda 5.3.1-2

In our case also, on one side we have no independent will and are mortal as body-mind entities. OTOH, a knower of Brahman becomes Brahman and attains independence. So, all living beings are That in essence and have the potential to realise such.
...

So, in summary, IMO, at the level of the Gurus, Brahman is Jnanam (knowledge), Anantam (infinite), Ananadm (bliss), yet for disciples all plural perspectives are assimilated, since what is true in consciousness is true since the consciousness is true.

 

[duvduv]

This is from the book by Dayanand Saraswati quoting the Vedas. I can say that about 98% of these quotes are fully compatible with the teachings of Judaism including the Ten Commandments. To me it is rather astonishing.

"By One Supreme Ruler is this universe pervaded, eve every world in the whole
circle of nature, He is the true God. Know Him, O man! and covet not unjustly the
wealth of any creature existing. Renounce all that is unjust and enjoy pure delight
- true spiritual happiness - by the practice of justice and righteousness which is
another name for true religion.YAJUR VEDA 40:1

"God teaches in the Veda "I, O men, lived before the whole universe came into
being, I am Lord of all, I am the eternal cause of the whole creation. I am the
source and giver of all wealth. Let all men look up to me alone as children do to
their parents. I have appointed different foods and drinks for all creatures to give
them sustenance so that they may live in happiness." RIG VEDA 10: 48, 5.

" I am God Almighty, I am the Light of the world like the sun. Neither defeat, nor
death, can ever approach me. I am the controller of the universe, know me alone
as the Creator of all. Strive ye diligently for the acquisition of power and wealth
such ( as true knowledge). Ask ye of me. May ye never lose my friendship. I give
true knowledge, which is real wealth, unto men who are truthful. I am the revealer
of Vedas which declare my true nature. It is through the Vedas that I advance the
knowledge of all. I am the prompter of the good and true. I reward those who
devote themselves to the good of humanity. I am the cause, I am the support of
all that exists in this universe. May ye never turn away from me. May ye never
accept another God in my place, nor worship him." RIG VEDA, 10:48, 5.

"God, O men existed in the beginning of the Creation. He is the Creator, Support
and Sustainer of the sun and other luminous worlds, He was the Lord of the past
Creation. He is the Lord of the present. He will be the Lord of the unborn
universe. He created the whole world, and he sustains it. He is Eternal Bliss. May
ye all praise and adore Him as we do." YAJUR VEDA, 13:4