Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Am I right that in the U.K. there is a state-sponsored religion, C of E? So that's quite different from here in the states, where the gov't is supposed to not be entangled with religion.
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Hindu offers invocation in Senate, Christians protest
- Thread starter Autodidact
- Start date
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
What on earth are you talking about? Greece, lawless? Ancient China? Egypt? Actually, the ancient Hebrews were remarkably similar to their neighbors. Where do you get this stuff?
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Ah, but immorality exists today within the Law and Morality of Christianity.
Immorality will exist as long as we define it as such.
Smoke
Done here.
You really need to take a trip to the library, or buy an encyclopedia, or something.
Ever heard of Lao-Tzu? Confucius?
Ever heard of Athens? Egypt? Sumer? Assyria?
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
It is called an Established Religion.
That is why the word established was used in your constitution.
Your citizens wanted there to be no established religion in government.
It is unlikely they meant no religions at all. Just a freedom of religion not a freedom from religion.
Most main religions are represented in the UK parliament and Lords. they accept that we have an established religion and attend prayers. some have even led them.
TheGreaterGame
Active Member
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
So what? Just because they believed in a specific religion, doesn't mean that the country only gives rights to Christians. There's that whole first amendment thing.
Besides, what does that have to do with your claim that the Jews were the only ones who had morals and laws?
Smoke
Done here.
Are you just free-associating? What's that got to do with whether law and morality originated in ancient Israel?
DeepShadow
White Crow
Benjamin Franklin vociferously defended the rights of Jews, Muslims and atheists to speak and even--except for the athiests--pray(!) in public settings. Thomas Jefferson studied the Quran, and even quoted it in government meetings on occasion. John Adams invited Hindus to speak on their beliefs at the White House. Apparently they didn't find that to be a conflict with their beliefs.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
You mean founding fathers like Thomas Paine:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)
James Madison:
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774[/FONT]
Benjamin Franklin:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.
John Adams (and George Washington)
[/FONT]As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character or enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Treaty of Tripoli
And what would Thomas Jefferson have said about discriminating against Hindu worship, the man who said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Among the most inestimable of our blessings is that ... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Thomas Jefferson, Reply to Baptist Address, 1807[/SIZE][/FONT]
Or maybe those were some other founding fathers you were referring to?
gnomon
Well-Known Member
I concur.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
God, yes. Christ, no.
And of those who believed in God, it's unlikely that they had in mind what you have in mind. Most of them were Deists.
Ever heard of the Jefferson bible? The one where he literally cut out any reference to supernaturalism whatsoever and left only the humanist teachings of the man called Jesus?