Hinduism and Christianity

[sayak83]

Answer my question and I will answer yours.

My thread my rules.
I will answer questions only if you answer mine.

 

[David T]

Recently, a podcast show was aired where the leader of a Hindu association in UK was in a discussion/debate with a Christian apologist who was claiming the superiority of Christianity and Jesus over other world religions and religious figures (here Krishna specifically). The discussion was a civil one, but I do not think that Dipen did a good job in articulating the ideas driving Hinduism that makes it distinctive. Watch the episode here:-

Unbelievable? Krishna, Christ and Hinduism debate – Ken Samples and Dipen Rajyaguru : Saturday 04 March 2017 2:30:00 pm - Premier Christian Radio

My own preliminary views on the matter that I posted in the comments might be useful to kickstart a discussion here. So here they are:-

I am a practicing Hindu. I personally found the above discussing a bit scattered in terms of content. After carefully looking at Christianity over a course of 6-7 years (I went to Bible study circle out of interest with a group of my Christian friends), I would have to say that Christianity does not stand up well against either Hinduism or Buddhism. I would mention certain basic points:-
1) No eternal Hell:-Firstly Hinduism does not believe in the concept of eternal Hell. While the concept of the ultimate state of existence, moksha, differs a bit between the schools, most agree that all beings attain it over the course of their (multiple) lifetimes.

2) No place for original sin:- Hinduism does not believe that there has been any alienation between the world and its material condition and God (Brahman). The world is not not fallen, and humans are not alienated from God. This world of shape and form retain its original nature as the aesthetic expression of creativity of Brahman (lila) and will never lose it.

3) Origin of Suffering:- Some beings, over the course of their many lifetimes, temporarily becomes too enamored with the moment-by-moment unfolding of this world and forget that they are more than changeable, mortal selves that is their outer form. This forgetting causes them to assess their condition differently than they would have if they remembered their correct nature( as part of Brahman connected to the world of shape and form as locii of creative action). Actions and decisions they then make out of this ignorance create conditions that put them out of sync with their own true selves and this disjoint is perceived as suffering.

4) Diversity of practice:- Since the problem is forgetfulness of the self and its true relationship with both the world and the transcendental reality, the solution is practices that help one remember them. There are many modes of doing this, and one can latch on to any or multiple combinations.

a)The theistic strands do this by love and worship of God or Gods (Bhakti-Yoga) who are personal manifestations of Brahman who, knowing their own correct nature, seek to aid more forgetful beings in their own path to realization. That is the nature of Gita, where Krishna instructs Arjuna in this vein. Forms of Mahayana and Pure Land Buddhism are also of this nature.

b) Meditative strands where, instead of building a loving relationship with a God, one looks within oneself through meditation and self reflection (yoga) to uncover one's true nature as Atman who is non-different from Brahman. The Upanisads encapsulate this insight while the Yoga texts describe the disciplines by which one achieves this. It is to be noted that Buddhist meditation practices are essentially of this vein though there are differences between Hindu-s and Buddhist on what is the nature of the thing that is uncovered by this. Most renouncers (sannyasins) fall in this category.

c) Analytical methods whereby one uncovers the true nature of the world and the self through rational inquiry and philosophical and scientific investigation (Anviksiki). A very very important strand of classical and medieval Hinduism, these include the logical and epistemic investigation of realist and rationalist Nyaya school, the ontology and metaphysical investigation of atomistic Vaisesika school and the investigation of language and meaning by Mimansa school. An Indian Hindu will be practicing Anviksiki if he is in an academic discipline and his/her toil and effort in uncovering philosophical, mathematical, linguistic or mathematical knowledge would ideally be part of his yoga within Hinduism.

d) Uncovering oneself through acting in the world (Karma-Yoga). Emphasized in the Gita, this method of how to act in the world so that it produces fruits of enlightenment is the subject matter of dharma and constitute the largest fraction of Hindu texts. They span principles of ethical action(the epic literature, the Dharmashastras), principles of politics and wealth acquisition (Arthshastra, Shantiparva in Mahabharata etc.) principles of cultural refinement, art and aesthetic (Natyashastra) and principles of lovemaking, family duties and filial relationships (Grihya-sutras, Kama-sutra etc.) While the principles are fixed, their application in the world changes as conditions of the world change. Hence texts in this subcategory continues to written in every age by the masters. Thus, the writings of Gandhi form as much a part of Dharmashastra texts as more ancient writings.

While individuals and schools focus on different aspects of the four categories of enlightenment activities discussed above. However, a dharmic society as a whole is expected to pay equal emphasis in all four, and it is believed that all beings participate in all of the above through their multiple lifetimes.

That's an incomplete gist. The corpus of texts and associated disciplines is so vast that no Hindu is expected to know or master all. So no Hindu can present a complete picture and one needs to talk to many to get a sense of the ecosystem of the Hindu worldview.

Comments? Impressions?

First at the end of time no matter what Hindus will be able to say "we said that a billion years ago" if humans are around in a billion years! So yea, lots of truth in Hinduism. So much so that Buddha had to do a Hinduism 2.0. In a lot of ways the christian text doesn't conflict with Hinduism at all. I think this is what Gandhi was alluding to when he said " I really like your Christ i don't care so much for your Christians". Christianity is filled with people who are willing to kill in the name of Christ because of their own self importance and superiority, just as people killed in the name of Gandhi. So all religions must be wary of hate as it manifests in it's sphere of influence Christianity nor Hinduism nor any religion is exempt from this.

 

[whirlingmerc]

For Buddhism that is true. Hinduism is primarily concerned with removing ignorance which it considers the root of all problems including suffering. It is called "knowing that by which all else is known."

And in Christianity, God's passion is God's glory... is that contrasted with removing ignorance?

 

[sayak83]

And in Christianity, God's passion is God's glory... is that contrasted with removing ignorance?

I do not understand the question.

 

[omega2xx]

My thread my rules.
I will answer questions only if you answer mine.

I ask first. Questions need to be answered in the order given. That's my rule in every thread.

 

[sayak83]

I ask first. Questions need to be answered in the order given. That's my rule in every thread.

I do not follow your rules.
My thread, my rules. You answer the question yourself first, or retract the question. Simple.

 

[sayak83]

First at the end of time no matter what Hindus will be able to say "we said that a billion years ago" if humans are around in a billion years! So yea, lots of truth in Hinduism. So much so that Buddha had to do a Hinduism 2.0. In a lot of ways the christian text doesn't conflict with Hinduism at all. I think this is what Gandhi was alluding to when he said " I really like your Christ i don't care so much for your Christians". Christianity is filled with people who are willing to kill in the name of Christ because of their own self importance and superiority, just as people killed in the name of Gandhi. So all religions must be wary of hate as it manifests in it's sphere of influence Christianity nor Hinduism nor any religion is exempt from this.

I believe there are significant differences between Hinduism and Christianity, but overall I agree with what you said.

 

[David T]

I believe there are significant differences between Hinduism and Christianity, but overall I agree with what you said.

there are extreme differences in styles of music as well!!! but still a guitar and a sitar are related.

 

[ajay0]

Personally I find the concepts of reincarnation and karma to be attractive but the Bible also talks about 'sowing' and 'reaping' so there is common ground on some parts of the theology.

I was most impressed by Ramakrishna's statement on the Christ which has emphasized my differentiation between the Christ and the religion Christianity.

Vision of Christ | How Sri Ramakrishna Saw Jesus Merge Into His Body

Yes, Ramakrishna worshipped Krishna, Jesus and the Divine Mother as different facets of the same divinity.

His teaching of the unity of all religions is more relevant than before in modern times.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would rarely enter a thread like this, based on how far apart I view the two paradigms. This is just a reminder to all who are reading.

Hinduism is vast ... incredibly vast. There are those who look to agreements with western paradigms, those leaning towards a more universalist approach like to. Bit there are also those like myself who see it (Christianity) as totally irrelevant to my world view. On a human level, we love our human brothers and sisters, but philosophically ... nah. It's just too much stretch, and distortion in order to find commonality. So the Christian faith is distorted to fall more into what is considered eastern, and similarly, the Sanatana Dharma is distorted to appear more western than it actually is.

Generally, only those Hindus leaning towards liberalism or universalism would even enter such discussions, and they most certainly do not speak for the resat of us.

 

[omega2xx]

I do not follow your rules.
My thread, my rules. You answer the question yourself first, or retract the question. Simple.

Your rules are not mandatory for me. Mine are if you expect a response.

 

[sayak83]

Your rules are not mandatory for me. Mine are if you expect a response.

Who cares about your response? Not me.

 

[sayak83]

I would rarely enter a thread like this, based on how far apart I view the two paradigms. This is just a reminder to all who are reading.

Hinduism is vast ... incredibly vast. There are those who look to agreements with western paradigms, those leaning towards a more universalist approach like to. Bit there are also those like myself who see it (Christianity) as totally irrelevant to my world view. On a human level, we love our human brothers and sisters, but philosophically ... nah. It's just too much stretch, and distortion in order to find commonality. So the Christian faith is distorted to fall more into what is considered eastern, and similarly, the Sanatana Dharma is distorted to appear more western than it actually is.

Generally, only those Hindus leaning towards liberalism or universalism would even enter such discussions, and they most certainly do not speak for the resat of us.

If one does not speak, documentaries like the one Reza Aslan did will fill that void. A CNN documentary explictly designed to show how bizarre other world religions supposedly are just before Easter followed by a documentary on Jesus is quite transparent in what it seeks to portray.
Believer with Reza Aslan - CNN.com
FInding Jesus: Faith, fact and forgery - CNN.com

 

[sayak83]

I see no correlation between that an this thread.

Not again!
Look at the podcast link. There, an evangelical preacher has explicitly written a book arguing that other world religions and their revered figures, like Buddha or Krishna or Confucius are demonstrably and objectively inferior to Jesus and Christianity. The program (which actually is quite a good one) invited a spokesperson of UK Hindu group to debate/discuss such claims with the author of the book. One should not speak for one's worldviews and and attempt to rebut such claims and inaccurate portrayals of Hinduism under such a circumstance?

Unbelievable? Krishna, Christ and Hinduism debate – Ken Samples and Dipen Rajyaguru : Saturday 04 March 2017 2:30:00 pm - Premier Christian Radio


‘God Among Sages: Why Jesus is not just another religious leader’ is a new book by Ken Samples of Reasons To Believe that compares and contrast Jesus with founding figures from all the main religions. Krishna is a key figure in the Hindu religion. Ken debates with Dipen Rajyaguru of the Hindu Council UK.

Ken believe that Jesus is unique among all spiritual leaders and is superior to Krishna in terms of his historical and moral record and his offer of salvation. Dipen responds on why he believe Jesus is a revered spiritual figure but doesn’t believe Christians shouldn’t seek to promote him above any other figure.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Recently, a podcast show was aired where the leader of a Hindu association in UK was in a discussion/debate with a Christian apologist who was claiming the superiority of Christianity and Jesus over other world religions and religious figures (here Krishna specifically). The discussion was a civil one, but I do not think that Dipen did a good job in articulating the ideas driving Hinduism that makes it distinctive. Watch the episode here:-

Unbelievable? Krishna, Christ and Hinduism debate – Ken Samples and Dipen Rajyaguru : Saturday 04 March 2017 2:30:00 pm - Premier Christian Radio

My own preliminary views on the matter that I posted in the comments might be useful to kickstart a discussion here. So here they are:-

I am a practicing Hindu. I personally found the above discussing a bit scattered in terms of content. After carefully looking at Christianity over a course of 6-7 years (I went to Bible study circle out of interest with a group of my Christian friends), I would have to say that Christianity does not stand up well against either Hinduism or Buddhism. I would mention certain basic points:-
1) No eternal Hell:-Firstly Hinduism does not believe in the concept of eternal Hell. While the concept of the ultimate state of existence, moksha, differs a bit between the schools, most agree that all beings attain it over the course of their (multiple) lifetimes.

2) No place for original sin:- Hinduism does not believe that there has been any alienation between the world and its material condition and God (Brahman). The world is not not fallen, and humans are not alienated from God. This world of shape and form retain its original nature as the aesthetic expression of creativity of Brahman (lila) and will never lose it.

3) Origin of Suffering:- Some beings, over the course of their many lifetimes, temporarily becomes too enamored with the moment-by-moment unfolding of this world and forget that they are more than changeable, mortal selves that is their outer form. This forgetting causes them to assess their condition differently than they would have if they remembered their correct nature( as part of Brahman connected to the world of shape and form as locii of creative action). Actions and decisions they then make out of this ignorance create conditions that put them out of sync with their own true selves and this disjoint is perceived as suffering.

4) Diversity of practice:- Since the problem is forgetfulness of the self and its true relationship with both the world and the transcendental reality, the solution is practices that help one remember them. There are many modes of doing this, and one can latch on to any or multiple combinations.

a)The theistic strands do this by love and worship of God or Gods (Bhakti-Yoga) who are personal manifestations of Brahman who, knowing their own correct nature, seek to aid more forgetful beings in their own path to realization. That is the nature of Gita, where Krishna instructs Arjuna in this vein. Forms of Mahayana and Pure Land Buddhism are also of this nature.

b) Meditative strands where, instead of building a loving relationship with a God, one looks within oneself through meditation and self reflection (yoga) to uncover one's true nature as Atman who is non-different from Brahman. The Upanisads encapsulate this insight while the Yoga texts describe the disciplines by which one achieves this. It is to be noted that Buddhist meditation practices are essentially of this vein though there are differences between Hindu-s and Buddhist on what is the nature of the thing that is uncovered by this. Most renouncers (sannyasins) fall in this category.

c) Analytical methods whereby one uncovers the true nature of the world and the self through rational inquiry and philosophical and scientific investigation (Anviksiki). A very very important strand of classical and medieval Hinduism, these include the logical and epistemic investigation of realist and rationalist Nyaya school, the ontology and metaphysical investigation of atomistic Vaisesika school and the investigation of language and meaning by Mimansa school. An Indian Hindu will be practicing Anviksiki if he is in an academic discipline and his/her toil and effort in uncovering philosophical, mathematical, linguistic or mathematical knowledge would ideally be part of his yoga within Hinduism.

d) Uncovering oneself through acting in the world (Karma-Yoga). Emphasized in the Gita, this method of how to act in the world so that it produces fruits of enlightenment is the subject matter of dharma and constitute the largest fraction of Hindu texts. They span principles of ethical action(the epic literature, the Dharmashastras), principles of politics and wealth acquisition (Arthshastra, Shantiparva in Mahabharata etc.) principles of cultural refinement, art and aesthetic (Natyashastra) and principles of lovemaking, family duties and filial relationships (Grihya-sutras, Kama-sutra etc.) While the principles are fixed, their application in the world changes as conditions of the world change. Hence texts in this subcategory continues to written in every age by the masters. Thus, the writings of Gandhi form as much a part of Dharmashastra texts as more ancient writings.

While individuals and schools focus on different aspects of the four categories of enlightenment activities discussed above. However, a dharmic society as a whole is expected to pay equal emphasis in all four, and it is believed that all beings participate in all of the above through their multiple lifetimes.

That's an incomplete gist. The corpus of texts and associated disciplines is so vast that no Hindu is expected to know or master all. So no Hindu can present a complete picture and one needs to talk to many to get a sense of the ecosystem of the Hindu worldview.

Comments? Impressions?

But what about Christianity and Jesus Christ. The above in no way relates or includes any type of Christianity or Christ himself. Good if you want a lesson in Hinduism but nothing relates to Christianity as in Christ and the history with the disciples and before with the Prophets. How about discussing, grace, truth and spirit. These are the main elements of the Christian faith and how they change the person who knows God and Christ.I am looking forward to your answers regarding these things.

 

[sayak83]

But what about Christianity and Jesus Christ. The above in no way relates or includes any type of Christianity or Christ himself. Good if you want a lesson in Hinduism but nothing relates to Christianity as in Christ and the history with the disciples and before with the Prophets. How about discussing, grace, truth and spirit. These are the main elements of the Christian faith and how they change the person who knows God and Christ.I am looking forward to your answers regarding these things.

My comments were meant to clarify the basic contours of Hinduism as I see it since it was not well represented in the discussion. It would not be proper of me to describe the contours of the faith which I do not hold. I would ask you to do this and then we can look at where the differences and the similarities are and the reasons for the differences and similarities.

 

[ajay0]

A distinct similarity between Hinduism and Christianity....

While reading an article today, I came upon a Tamil saying, “Anbe Shivan, Shivan Anbe” meaning God or Shiva is love and love is Shiva.

This is similar to Jesus's own teaching, " God is love".