Hinduism and LGBT

[Terese]

Namaste,

I am just offering here my view because no one has offered this view in this thread so far -

I am not aware of any Hindu scripture defining homosexuality as a taboo. May be they do, may be they don't.

That aside, in my personal opinion, I view homosexuality as a 'permissible relationship' yet 'a relationship of concern'.

It is permissible because it is not something that obstructs others' dharma. 2 people who have strong inclination towards homosexuality participate in this relationship. What's in it for a 3-rd person to comment about it?

It is 'of concern' because while it is okay for those truly inclined to practice this form of relationship, it should not become a medium of strong influence to impress those who are not made this way to take this up because 'it is fun' or 'it is unique' or 'it is easy', etc, etc. Then it becomes 'against the interest of the society to further their generation' because every society wants to persist by bringing forth children.

That said, why should any way of living that does not harm or hurt anyone be a taboo?

Even if it is not sanctioned as per scriptures, we should all bear in mind that every living, even deviation from norm, gives us unique spiritual experiences that we cannot deny....

If some are made to grow 'the homosexual way', then so be it! It is also capable of elevating a person along different dimensions, be it easy or tough.

Bi curiosity does exist and some people might think along the lines of it being 'fun' 'unique' or 'easy' but its not that clear cut. Gayness is not a fad nor made to impress. People who become gay have felt like this throughout their lives. They do not simply drop it when it becomes unfashionable.

As for your "interest of society" argument, child adoption is widely available. There are many same sex couples with children.

I agree with everything else though

 

[Viraja]

As for your "interest of society" argument, child adoption is widely available. There are many same sex couples with children.

Yes, probably, it is society 'ripening' in its own way then.... to promote the more humane virtues of adoption, of getting rid of the notions of taboo and not taboo and accept and learn to live with differences, and so forth.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, probably, it is society 'ripening' in its own way then.... to promote the more humane virtues of adoption, of getting rid of the notions of taboo and not taboo and accept and learn to live with differences, and so forth.

High time, in my view. So much went on behind closed doors. My father once told me how he didn't realise there was such a thing as homosexuality until much later in life. When gay rights came more to the forefront 30 or so years ago, he finally realised that that was what he saw in the barracks during WW2. Before that, he thought the two men in bed were just wrestling.

 

[Viraja]

High time, in my view. So much went on behind closed doors. My father once told me how he didn't realise there was such a thing as homosexuality until much later in life. When gay rights came more to the forefront 30 or so years ago, he finally realised that that was what he saw in the barracks during WW2. Before that, he thought the two men in bed were just wrestling.

Not sure what would be the appropriate emoji for that message! Is it the funny emoticon or sad emoticon? Surely, an eye-opener nevertheless.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not sure what would be the appropriate emoji for that message! Is it the funny emoticon or sad emoticon? Surely, an eye-opener nevertheless.

My father, and others of that generation were naive about a lot of stuff. He also told stories about the first African-American who came to town. People were stunned, because they'd never seen that skin colour before. So many people raised in a single village have the false understanding that the rest of thew wold is like that. Globalisation. immigratiion, travel and more is changing that. But I still get it from Indians here who never traveled in India before coming to Canada. My new renter thinks all of India is like Delhi.

 

[Viraja]

My father, and others of that generation were naive about a lot of stuff. He also told stories about the first African-American who came to town. People were stunned, because they'd never seen that skin colour before. So many people raised in a single village have the false understanding that the rest of thew wold is like that. Globalisation. immigratiion, travel and more is changing that. But I still get it from Indians here who never traveled in India before coming to Canada. My new renter thinks all of India is like Delhi.

Let me quote a favorite story from a cartoon "Village of IDIOTS"...

A seemingly foolish family man wants to travel from Helm, his village to the big city of Varsaw and experience different things there...

He set out. But on the way, he falls asleep, loses the way and comes back to Helm.

He thinks Helm is now Varsaw. He is surprised, "How is it, in Varsaw, every street, every house, even every blade of grass looks the same as in Helm and is familiar?!!!".... He is confused.

He goes to his house.. thinks the "new wife" there looks exactly like his own wife in Helm and the "newer children" there also look to him, like his own.

So he settles down.

After sometime, he thinks, "Now that I have experienced Varsaw, why don't I go back to Helm, my own town?".

Then he tells to himself, "No, no! If Varsaw looks the same as Helm, that means, every place in the world looks exactly the same as Helm, every wife is exactly like my wife, every children are like my own, and surely then, all the world can offer only the same experience as here... no difference! Let's just stay here!".

Like that, newer answers come up only with newer experiences.

Not only that, we become aware of some of our own problems and innate bad tendencies, only as and when we have experiences that highlight them.

 

[Vinayaka]

Let me quote a favorite story from a cartoon "Village of IDIOTS"...

A seemingly foolish family man wants to travel from Helm, his village to the big city of Varsaw and experience different things there...

He set out. But on the way, he falls asleep, loses the way and comes back to Helm.

He thinks Helm is now Varsaw. He is surprised, "How is it, in Varsaw, every street, every house, even every blade of grass looks the same as in Helm and is familiar?!!!".... He is confused.

He goes to his house.. thinks the "new wife" there looks exactly like his own wife in Helm and the "newer children" there also look to him, like his own.

So he settles down.

After sometime, he thinks, "Now that I have experienced Varsaw, why don't I go back to Helm, my own town?".

Then he tells to himself, "No, no! If Varsaw looks the same as Helm, that means, every place in the world looks exactly the same as Helm, every wife is exactly like my wife, every children are like my own, and surely then, all the world can offer only the same experience as here... no difference! Let's just stay here!".

Like that, newer answers come up only with newer experiences.

Not only that, we become aware of some of our own problems and innate bad tendencies, only as and when we have experiences that highlight them.

I like the one about the two guys coming to the same village.

The first man (I'll call him Anil) comes, and on a walk to a park, sees an elderly man on a bench. So he sits down and asks him, "I'm curious about this village. Can you tell me about the people here?"
The man on the bench asks, "Well, tell me about where you came from. What was it like there?"
Anil gets a bit louder, "That town was full of idiots. They partied all night, drove their cars too fast, cooked horrible food, and everyone hated everyone. I'm so glad to be out of that hell hole."
The old man looks at him, 'I hate to disappoint you, but I'm afraid the people in this town are just like that."

The next day another man, (Vijay) new to the town. out on a walk, approaches the same old man on the bench. and asks the same thing. "Tell me, friend, what are the people like here?"
Same as before, the old man asks Vijay about his home own.
Vijay says, "We really liked it there, the people were so nice. We didn't want to move, but our house burned down, and land was much cheaper here. I'm going to really miis that place. It was so pretty, so idyllic, and the people were just so gracious all the time."
The old man looks at him, "Don't worry, Vijay, I think you'll find this town very similar to that one."

 

[Jainarayan]

As for your "interest of society" argument, child adoption is widely available. There are many same sex couples with children.

Have you seen that commercial with the male couple about to go out and leave their kids to a babysitter who is totally clueless about what the kids like, their bedtimes, and the parents' rules? It's a commercial that's something about "OK isn't good enough". Honestly when I first saw it, and other same sex couples in commercials I was taken aback... in the sense of "wow, this is really coming to light!" and being treated matter-of-factly. There's another one with a nerdy guy, the voice-over saying something to the effect of "... a guy you could take home to your mother" showing another nerdy guy. The commercial first it leads you to think it's going to be a boy and a a girl. You'd never think two nerdy guys would be gay.

 

[Viraja]

I like the one about the two guys coming to the same village.

The first man (I'll call him Anil) comes, and on a walk to a park, sees an elderly man on a bench. So he sits down and asks him, "I'm curious about this village. Can you tell me about the people here?"
The man on the bench asks, "Well, tell me about where you came from. What was it like there?"
Anil gets a bit louder, "That town was full of idiots. They partied all night, drove their cars too fast, cooked horrible food, and everyone hated everyone. I'm so glad to be out of that hell hole."
The old man looks at him, 'I hate to disappoint you, but I'm afraid the people in this town are just like that."

The next day another man, (Vijay) new to the town. out on a walk, approaches the same old man on the bench. and asks the same thing. "Tell me, friend, what are the people like here?"
Same as before, the old man asks Vijay about his home own.
Vijay says, "We really liked it there, the people were so nice. We didn't want to move, but our house burned down, and land was much cheaper here. I'm going to really miis that place. It was so pretty, so idyllic, and the people were just so gracious all the time."
The old man looks at him, "Don't worry, Vijay, I think you'll find this town very similar to that one."

That's a great story, but not too sure what I can infer from that.

The obvious message is that world gives us back what we give it.

Is there any further inference that I can benefit from?

 

[Vinayaka]

That's a great story, but not too sure what I can infer from that.

The obvious message is that world gives us back what we give it.

Is there any further inference that I can benefit from?

That's about it I think.

 

[Jainarayan]

That's a great story, but not too sure what I can infer from that.

The obvious message is that world gives us back what we give it.

Is there any further inference that I can benefit from?

That's about it I think.

Apologies if anyone is familiar with the story, I don't mean to sound patronizing.

There's conversation in The Fellowship of the Ring between two characters, both of the race of Men. They're about to go into an Elven kingdom ruled by a powerful and mysterious Elf queen. She has quite a reputation for her power and mystery. Some believe her to be evil (she's far from it). The first man (Aragorn) is a king in exile and incognito, the second (Boromir) is a brave warrior.

Boromir says that as brave as he is, he's reluctant to go into the kingdom to seek the Elves' help because of the rumors he's heard of the evil in there. Aragorn tells him that the only evil in there is what a man brings.

Ok, that's it... no more to tell.

 

[Viraja]

I liked the story. Actually, that reminds me of another story one young guruji called Amarendra Prabhu talks about in his ISKCON speeches video that I heard recently. That is the encounter between Jesus in the desert with Satan trying to tempt him following 40 days of fast. I'm going to post my question in the Christianity folder.

Many of these parables and short stories from around the religions give us so much insight. Thanks for the story.

 

[Vinidra]

There is so much I want to say, but the two things that leap at me the most is for people to use the multiquote button instead of responding to each person in seperate posts like 10 posts in a row of one person.

Also parts of this thread and the incident with my friend really tempts me to respond rudely to some of the more egregious statements. I don't want to debate but I feel like certain views on the topic are just so narrow and uncomprimising, as if there is only one "right" way when if anything I've always seen Hinduism to be a "many ways" kind of set of religions... even in the Gita Krishna lays out alternatives in one section for various ways to work towards Dharma. Can't recall the section atm or what exactly was said, might google it later. Busy right now but wanted to just say all that before coming back later to this as it was gnawing at me.

Two things:

One, I am a bisexual (cis) woman and a Shakta Hindu. You are not alone.

Two, bigots are going to be bigots. We're probably not going to be able to change their minds. So try not to let it bother you too much. (I know, much easier said than done!)

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are many same sex couples with children.

Yes, there are, some in India too. But if everyone turns gay, then who would provide the children? Although that is not going to happen. It is against the law of averages.

I'm going to post my question in the Christianity folder.

Good, I thank you for that.

Two things: One, I am a bisexual (cis) woman and a Shakta Hindu.

Am I concerned about that? Nope. You are a fellow member of the forum.

 

[Vinidra]

.Am I concerned about that? Nope. You are a fellow member of the forum.

Thank you, Aup!

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do you know that I am not?

 

[Terese]

Have you seen that commercial with the male couple about to go out and leave their kids to a babysitter who is totally clueless about what the kids like, their bedtimes, and the parents' rules? It's a commercial that's something about "OK isn't good enough". Honestly when I first saw it, and other same sex couples in commercials I was taken aback... in the sense of "wow, this is really coming to light!" and being treated matter-of-factly. There's another one with a nerdy guy, the voice-over saying something to the effect of "... a guy you could take home to your mother" showing another nerdy guy. The commercial first it leads you to think it's going to be a boy and a a girl. You'd never think two nerdy guys would be gay.

No i have not, but they sound like good commercials!

Yes, there are, some in India too. But if everyone turns gay, then who would provide the children?

The gay people!

 

[Jainarayan]

No i have not, but they sound like good commercials!


The gay people!

Exactly. We can, and do make babies. It just takes a lot of fantasizing. And sometimes a brown paper bag.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The gay people!

Yeah, quite possible with modern science.

 

[ronki23]

I think it really depends on which school of Hinduism it is.

India is one of the few countries you'll find groups of these: