Hindus, Modern Pagans, and Indopaganism

[Kirran]

Thanks Bro, for correcting me. 'Kiran', as you know, means a ray of light and is a popular name for girls. I did not pay attention to the second 'r'. I think it makes a lot of difference.

That's OK, my parents made up a name, as far as I know in ignorance of it being a name in India already.

So yes, a sadhu not a sadhvi.

 

[James Field]

Er...no.

Which of his points are you saying no to ? Technically the ancient religions of the Indian subcontinent could be considered "pagan", or, perhaps, if we don't want to associate it with Europe or define it by the standards of the Abrahamic religions, the indigenous religions of India. It would also be hard not to consider someone a Hindu if they worship the Devas/Devis, read the Shruti and Smriti, and did Aarti; and it is certainly colonialism which has led some Hindus to pander to Christians by explaining they're religion, as a whole, not just their sect, as monotheistic. Though it seems most of the Hindus here don't seem to have much of a problem with Paganism save that they're concerned about the misunderstanding of the Indian Gods and Goddesses

 

[James Field]

Thank Goddess For Pagans! - Magazine Web Edition > February 1991 - Publications - Hinduism Today Magazine

 

[Vishvavajra]

"Pagan" is a word Christians invented to describe the "other." Pretty much everybody who's not a Christian or a Jew has been tossed into that category at some point, and many still are. Most Christians still regard Hindus as pagans, for all intents and purposes. Same with Buddhists and pretty much anything else coming out of India or China.

The two possible responses to the word are 1) to avoid it and try to reduce that kind of othering or 2) to try to own it and rob it of its negative force. One might say those are two roads to the same destination.

 

[Kirran]

"Pagan" is a word Christians invented to describe the "other." Pretty much everybody who's not a Christian or a Jew has been tossed into that category at some point, and many still are. Most Christians still regard Hindus as pagans, for all intents and purposes. Same with Buddhists and pretty much anything else coming out of India or China.

The two possible responses to the word are 1) to avoid it and try to reduce that kind of othering or 2) to try to own it and rob it of its negative force. One might say those are two roads to the same destination.

As part of the latter process, it has come to meqn something rather more specific among those who claim adherence.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The two possible responses to the word are 1) to avoid it and try to reduce that kind of othering or 2) to try to own it and rob it of its negative force. One might say those are two roads to the same destination.

The first is like appeasement of the Germans by French (accept their meaning), so I chose the second. Take it head-on.

 

[James Field]

The first is like appeasement of the Germans by French (accept their meaning), so I chose the second. Take it head-on.

I agree; perhaps, someday, there will be enough "Pagans" in the west again and they can find a name for themselves on their own term.

 

[James Field]

Or they can own it as many Shaktas, Smartas, Dvaitans and other followers of Sanatana Dharma have owned the label "Hindu"

 

[Aupmanyav]

Oh sure, perhaps there can be marriages between eligible Hindu deities with the eligible European pagan deities.

Like the merger of Jutes with the Danes in Denmark; the Geats and Gutes with the Swedes in Sweden, and the Angles and the Saxons in England.
Rise of the Germanic Kingdoms

 

[James Field]

Oh sure, perhaps there can be marriages between eligible Hindu deities with the eligible European pagan deities.

Like the merger of Jutes with the Danes in Denmark; the Geats and Gutes with the Swedes in Sweden, and the Angles and the Saxons in England.
Rise of the Germanic Kingdoms

What do you mean ? And thank you for posting the article, I enjoy learning history

 

[ShivaFan]

Interesting. I never heard of the term "IndoPaganism" so I did a quckie search and found:

"The IndoPagan Project seeks to be a resource for, and to unite those in the NeoPagan community who feel a deepest resonance with the Vedic, Hindu, Buddhist or other path of Indo-origin, and whose ritual practice and pantheon choice is based heavily in one or more of those spiritualities."

First off, while like anything else if you peruse it you are going to find the odd or circus act, but overall the Indopagans who are serious struck me as academic, educated in the theme and Hinduism, fair, erudite. I sort of like what I saw (as a Hindu), and I find it interesting in that there seems to be a broader alliance of the Divine than some may imagine. My perspective is, if there is indeed as much communion going on with the "pagans" with the Hindu Divinity, the Divinity will have as much influence on them as their message has on others over the internet or "gatherings". I see a win win here.

So actually, I am not having a problem with it. I think folks will be surprised how well this is likely to pan out. Don't discount the intervention of the Gods in this, the "powers that Be" and the natural balance here that has no little say in the matter.

While it is true that Indopaganism is a "modern" gathering of tribes, I am not so sure that paganism if you will of old Europe ever "died". The Gods and angels and faeries are definetly still there.

In Vietnam, in the stress of battle, an event was described to me from a female whose husband was in the midst of a horrific battle, choppers in the sky, troops on the ground, the Vietcong all over and in the spooky. Suddenly he saw "a lady in white", when he told others, holy cow, they started seeing "Her", too. Five in total all saw "Her". Then they called "Her" the white Athena. They don't know why they did so.

It could have been an illusion. Or total fear combined with "mass consciosness". But all saw the same.

Did this woman lie to me?

Could it be, that when several minds think the same in the middle of mind-rushing-melding and frankly in this case fear, that very cunsciousness not only causes illusions ... but actually causes reality? That if you think, then they will come? That what is in the air, can actually form?

Whatever happened, when she told me, my hair stood up on my neck.

Hi Athena, hope you are having a nice day.

Sorry, I detracted from Hinduism. But this may work out. No one is going to be able to stop it anyway. Certainly, I am not the Hierophant who sets the stage for the Act (part 2). My Hinduism certainly will be around, no matter what.

 

[Kirran]

As Hinduism of course has older philosophical traditions to other pagan faiths, as far as I'm aware, I can see Western pagans in some cases adopting forms of Hindu philosophical systems (Mimamsa, different subschools of Vedanta) alongside, or encapsulating, their beliefs in deities.

Maybe we'll have the Odinites as the eighth denomination of Hinduism, even

 

[Jainarayan]

Interesting. I never heard of the term "IndoPaganism" so I did a quckie search and found:

"The IndoPagan Project seeks to be a resource for, and to unite those in the NeoPagan community who feel a deepest resonance with the Vedic, Hindu, Buddhist or other path of Indo-origin, and whose ritual practice and pantheon choice is based heavily in one or more of those spiritualities."

First off, while like anything else if you peruse it you are going to find the odd or circus act, but overall the Indopagans who are serious struck me as academic, educated in the theme and Hinduism, fair, erudite. I sort of like what I saw (as a Hindu), and I find it interesting in that there seems to be a broader alliance of the Divine than some may imagine. My perspective is, if there is indeed as much communion going on with the "pagans" with the Hindu Divinity, the Divinity will have as much influence on them as their message has on others over the internet or "gatherings". I see a win win here.

Now that this subject is in Comparative Religion I can throw in my 2 cents.

I think Wicca and some forms of Paganism (perhaps Celtic) may lend themselves to syncretizing with Hinduism perfectly well. However, I have found that Germanic Heathenry, e.g. Ásatrú does not. Believe me, I was trying. I do like the Hindu Gods, but it just doesn't fit in with Ásatrú. I came to a resolution that makes perfect sense to me I tried and tried, and it just doesn't work | ReligiousForums.com

Even if one were to offer the Aesir and Vanir only vegetarian items, it remains that they are not vegetarian and not non-violent. Pork, especially wild boar if it can be obtained, is highly prized as an offering to the Gods, ancestors and wights, and at a communal feast. Germanic Heathenry and Paganism does not proscribe or prohibit violence. In fact, it has traditionally encouraged and sanctioned it. And while we may not today go around smiting people, the principle is still there. And then we have the theology and nature of the Gods which are completely different, especially if one takes the traditional approaches of each religion.

This is just my view, but I'm not sure it can work properly without some serious compromising of the values of each religion.

 

[James Field]

I hope the neo-Pagan and Hindu communities in the west can form a close bond; the Pagans could probably learn a lot, it could aid them in reviving their religions

 

[Vishvavajra]

Even if one were to offer the Aesir and Vanir only vegetarian items, it remains that they are not vegetarian and not non-violent. Pork, especially wild boar if it can be obtained, is highly prized as an offering to the Gods, ancestors and wights, and at a communal feast. Germanic Heathenry and Paganism does not proscribe or prohibit violence. In fact, it has traditionally encouraged and sanctioned it. And while we may not today go around smiting people, the principle is still there. And then we have the theology and nature of the Gods which are completely different, especially if one takes the traditional approaches of each religion.

Things aren't so static. The culture that authored the Vedas wasn't vegetarian either. It was a semi-nomadic pastoral culture ruled by warrior aristocrats. Their chief god was Indra, who is very similar to Zeus, and they practiced animal sacrifice. The move towards nonviolence and vegetarianism was gradual. In Buddhist thought, Indra became a Buddhist and redirected his energy towards defending the Dharma. In Greco-Buddhist art you see Heracles has done the same. There's no reason Thor couldn't do likewise.

Neopaganism, since it came out of 19th-century Romanticism, tends to want to recapture an age that is both idealized and at least partly fictitious, but certainly not the age we live in today. Traditional religion like that of the ancient Nordic peoples wouldn't have remained static; it would have changed with the times and syncretized with other cultural influences. There's already a fair bit of Greco-Roman syncretism going on by the time of the Eddas, and possibly some influence from Christianity. Cultural essentialism was a notion that was born and died in the 20th century and was very much tied up with the nationalism of the day. Neopagans caught the bug, and many never got over it. In fact ancient people's approach to gods etc. was quite a bit more sophisticated and dynamic.

 

[James Field]

Now that this subject is in Comparative Religion I can throw in my 2 cents.

I think Wicca and some forms of Paganism (perhaps Celtic) may lend themselves to syncretizing with Hinduism perfectly well. However, I have found that Germanic Heathenry, e.g. Ásatrú does not. Believe me, I was trying. I do like the Hindu Gods, but it just doesn't fit in with Ásatrú. I came to a resolution that makes perfect sense to me I tried and tried, and it just doesn't work | ReligiousForums.com

Even if one were to offer the Aesir and Vanir only vegetarian items, it remains that they are not vegetarian and not non-violent. Pork, especially wild boar if it can be obtained, is highly prized as an offering to the Gods, ancestors and wights, and at a communal feast. Germanic Heathenry and Paganism does not proscribe or prohibit violence. In fact, it has traditionally encouraged and sanctioned it. And while we may not today go around smiting people, the principle is still there. And then we have the theology and nature of the Gods which are completely different, especially if one takes the traditional approaches of each religion.

This is just my view, but I'm not sure it can work properly without some serious compromising of the values of each religion.

It's true syncretism may not always be the best idea for some traditions, but the two groups could certainly benefit from a close bond and standing up for one another when harassed or undermined by certain organizations or individuals

 

[Jainarayan]

Those are very good points. No culture or religion exists in a vacuum. This approach includes a fair amount of upg because we are so far removed from the original sources, societies and ancient practices.

 

[Jainarayan]

It's true syncretism may not always be the best idea for some traditions, but the two groups could certainly benefit from a close bond and standing up for one another when harassed or undermined by certain organizations or individuals

No doubt!

 

[James Field]

Things aren't so static. The culture that authored the Vedas wasn't vegetarian either. It was a semi-nomadic pastoral culture ruled by warrior aristocrats. Their chief god was Indra, who is very similar to Zeus, and they practiced animal sacrifice. The move towards nonviolence and vegetarianism was gradual. In Buddhist thought, Indra became a Buddhist and redirected his energy towards defending the Dharma. In Greco-Buddhist art you see Heracles has done the same. There's no reason Thor couldn't do likewise.

Neopaganism, since it came out of 19th-century Romanticism, tends to want to recapture an age that is both idealized and at least partly fictitious, but certainly not the age we live in today. Traditional religion like that of the ancient Nordic peoples wouldn't have remained static; it would have changed with the times and syncretized with other cultural influences. There's already a fair bit of Greco-Roman syncretism going on by the time of the Eddas, and possibly some influence from Christianity. Cultural essentialism was a notion that was born and died in the 20th century and was very much tied up with the nationalism of the day. Neopagans caught the bug, and many never got over it. In fact ancient people's approach to gods etc. was quite a bit more sophisticated and dynamic.

I've often wondered how the pagan religions would have evolved had they not been stamped out of Europe

 

[Vishvavajra]

I've often wondered how the pagan religions would have evolved had they not been stamped out of Europe

Neo-Platonic religion is probably a good indicator. In other words, they would have reacted to Christianity by becoming highly syncretic and fusing a philosophical system to the outward forms of religious expression. They also would have come to consider themselves a single tradition with many facets, as opposed to a bunch of entirely independent, localized cults, becoming somewhat organized in the process. They probably also would have become more interested in humanistic pursuits and social justice and eventually moved away from the sacrificial model of practice. In other words, they would have imitated Christianity just far enough to really compete with it, while keeping their own diverse character.

Hellenic religion in the form of Neo-Platonism (which actually included religious traditions from Egypt, Syria, and other places, despite the name) became a pretty robust tradition by the end, but it was too little too late, and there was already heavy state oppression from the Theodosian period onward. All modern paganism is heavily influenced by the Neo-Platonic model, even if its practitioners don't consciously realize it. It was the very first neopagan movement, in a sense. The thing is, it didn't survive long enough to take traditions from Northern Europe under its wing, though it would have been happy to do so. As far as they were concerned, "Hellenism" was the native, non-Christian traditions of any peoples whatsoever. Basically, it took Christianity for the Greeks to suddenly realize that all the religious cultures around them were hella awesome and needed to be preserved against the oncoming storm.