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Hindus, Modern Pagans, and Indopaganism

James Field

Member
This is a misleading assertion born from an inadequate understanding of pUrvamImAMsA. I would like to state that I point this out not to discourage, but to highlight the intricate nature of this highly misunderstood Astika school of thought, which itself has historically diversified into three prominent sub-schools. The very svabhAva of pUrvamImAMsA makes it inherently hostile, very much so, to its adopting by members or groups outside the Astika fold. Without accepting the philosophical, analytical, and exegetical underpinnings of the apaurusheyatva doctrine, it would fail to be pUrvamImAMsA. The jaiminisUtra, shlokavArttika (esp. the codanAsUtra portion), and even Dharmakirti's pramANavArttika explain this characteristic of pUrvamImAMsA. Regarding other Hindu philosophical systems, I'm sure some compromises can be made to make their accommodation more pleasant and well transitioned.

If Indo-Pagan implies folkish variations, I would very much be an Indo-Pagan. In addition, being the only staunch Hindu polytheist, with hard inclinations, here on RF automatically makes me very much pagan to even other Hindus with pantheistic, monist, dualist, etc., bends. On the other hand, if Indo-Pagan implies amalgamatious or syncretic expressions of Europagans, African-pagans, Japanese folk-variants, Chinese folk-variants, and the rest of the whole shebang, coming together with village Hinduism, I feel it to be only natural that the worshipers of numerous gods and goddesses, each glorious and contextually important, find commonality and brotherhood amongst one another. In fact, I find more in common with, say, Japanese folk-variants than I do with orthodox Vaishnava-s, not to mention how Hindu gods have a unique, and "in a Japanese way", so to speak, presence in Japan.

However, what I, as a Hindu, would find concerning is the mis-attributing and/or misappropriation of Hindu, as well as other non-Hindu but Dharmic figureheads, concepts, and objects of prominence, by pagan circles which, as per my observations, have had the tendency to involve back-preaching (i.e., Hindus are practicing their religion incorrectly; Hindus should go back to the Vedas; the Vedas belong to us not modern-day Hindus, Hinduism is not vaidika; etc.). Where this tendency to articulate "true _______" came from, I'll never really know. However, the fact that it occurs is concerning, nonetheless. It isn't the job of any pagan practitioner, including Hindu polytheists, to urge that one is practicing their faith, which is highly socio-cultural in nature rather than theological, doctrinal, credal, and textualistic, in an incorrect manner in the hopes to return it to a construction ultimately imaginary and prone to conjecture. This isn't how most non-Abrahamic faiths operate, nor have operated historically. Socio-cultural realities and that of the bahudeva (Sanskrit for "many-gods") have often gone hand-in-hand. If I was in another country that has a sizable population practicing their faith in their own cultural manner, it would be disastrous, and a grave affront, for me to complain that they me be expressing their own socio-cultural realities and divine acknowledgement improperly. That is their own expression; as a guest, I would be highly honored to just even be invited and observe how my pagan comrades of that locality operate or function. Likewise, if I find myself in Norway, Sweden, China, Iceland, and/or Japan, and other related countries.

Paganism, in general, has functioned well on pluralist grounds with the automatic understanding that worshipers of many gods and goddesses have their own way of doing things. If I went back in time and found myself in Ancient Greece, it would do me no harm to offer acknowledge to the Hellenic gods under the guidance and assistance of a native practitioner. And if both the ancient Greek and the ancient Indian were to come together socio-politically, we would notice the happening of the same things that occurred in Gandhara: the incorporation of both Hellenic and Indic deities through amalgamatious expressions. Not really theological compromises, but rather socio-cultural compromises, and understandably and rightly so. As I have always said, I long to see the European resurgence of the intricate and unique pagan expressions regarding their ancestral gods and goddesses and of their folk-variants---I should interject by adding that I long to see similar resurgence elsewhere in the world, and hopefully in other countries that have had that history. Glorious Iceland has taken a wonderful step in acknowledging, quite outright, her pagan past through the recent creation of a temple. I hope other countries with a similar history follow suit, though naturally---and by naturally, I mean through an honest, internal drive to reconnect.

Aryans this and Aryans that. Aryan, Aryan, and Aryan. The problem with Aup-dada's involvement in such threads, a recalcitrance that occurs with Colonial-derived veracity, is that it indirectly, whether he means to or not, monopolizes the understanding of ancient Indian tribes and parcels about a view that is ultimately in a constant state of refinement, not to mention that the mere treating of such a term purely on racial and ethnic grounds, as he does, has long been discontinued. Furthermore, such participation is rather discouraging. While meaning well, it comes along Indologically, not Hinduaically. It would have been more beneficial if other, and more, Hindus participated in this thread; their lack in presence, however, illustrates how the OP's subject matter is something rarely ventured upon, unfortunately. And it's unfortunate because some of the greatest camaraderie the Hindu can find, apart from other Dharmics, is amongst pagans.


Well, it's most certainly true, as per orthodoxical, indigenous, and Indological narratives, that the upaniSad-s are part of shruti. They, along with their sectarian and/or sub-schools of thought commentaries, constitute the j~NAnakANDa of that which is shruti-derived; the Veda-s, along with their associated brAhmaNa-s, dharmasUtra-s, gRhyasUtra-s, shrautasUtra-s, etc., constitute the karmakANDa. In a simpler, as well as historical, usage, that which is declared Veda is well beyond just the Rg, sAma, and yajur (as well as atharva), incorporating various upaniSad-s in the process. Known as rahasyavid, they have always played a prominent role and today act as the theological underpinnings of much of modern day Hindu thought, the latter of which has highly been influenced by Vedantic understandings.


However, in regards to the "historical Vedic religion", I would like to express a few and brief thoughts on the matter. Such a classification of "Brahmanism", another classification which in and of itself is misleading, is conjecture at best, and born from the assumption that it was a widespread, mainstream occurrence once upon a time. If anything, the "historical Vedic religion" has never been mainstream, and understandably so. And it wasn't even a religion, per say. It was confined to a select few who were very much exclusively inclined. They could hardly be used to classify the karmakANDa as constituting an ancient Indian religion of some sort. Even the warriors, kings, and laypersons that sponsored their services in order to conduct contextually-relevant rituals had their own folkish inclinations. The "historical Vedic religion" is ultimately a construction, by observers far removed from both cultural and religious ties to the subcontinent, pedestaled to unnecessary heights, largely based on etymological assumptions, some of which do have merit, I'll concede, in order to understand both Indio-Iranian and early Indic society. While the gods such societies may have worshiped may have "Vedic" origins, the construction does very little in explaining non-Brahmanic realities outside both Astika (orthodox) and nAstika (heterodox) socio-political confinements.
So most of the everyday people wouldn't have fully acknowledged or participated in the "Vedic religion", but just the ritual and the worship of the Devas ?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
D'oh! I forgot you did mention that. I'm thinking more of the "traditional" deities... Lakshmi, Hanuman, Krishna, Rama, Ganesha, Saraswati, et. al. and their preferences for offerings. At the end of the day, I'd say "when in Rome... ", i.e. offer the Hindu deities flowers, fruits, water, incense. Of course other deities like those too. :)

In Fiji there's a drink that acts something like an intoxicant, you've probably heard of it, it's called "Kava" (sp?) Personally hate the stuff myself (give me Vodka any day.) It's basically roots of a plant crushed up and you then drink it and your lips go all numb. I suppose it's like a rather weak beer of sorts.

I've been to a couple of Traditional (according to my family's traditions) Hindu Weddings as well as several prominent Hindu temples which had Lakshmi, Hunuman, Rama, Ganesh and the rest lol in Fiji. Kava was not only drunk by the men, it was offered as part of Prasad everywhere and so out of respect to the deities, I had to drink quite a bit of the stuff. Blech!

Of course there's Bang drunk during Holi by some Nepalese. So, depends on your tradition, I suppose?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I didn't know kava could get you blitzed. It's used as a sedative...

oh wait, wut? o_O
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
@ Poeticus, I like your post even if I do not fully understand it. ..

Upanishads are a part of Vedas but I do not think they always were. Same goes for Brahmanas and Aranyakas. The Vedic Aryans did not need explanations on how to conduct their rituals. The need for Brahmanas and Aranyakas arose when Aryans moved away from their homeland and their geographic environment and came to a new environment.

Then many things became un-understandable. For example, should the Adityas (suns) be taken as eight or twelve? When should the sattra (year, commencement of sacrifices) begin - Magha, Poush, or Chaitra (Hindu calendar months)? Should 'gavam-ayanam' sacrifices be continued for twelve months or should they be concluded in ten months)? Etc.

In that sense, RigVeda and SamaVeda (both nearly copies of each other) stand alone as the most ancient lore of Indo-Iranian Aryans.

"It ranks next in sanctity and liturgical importance to the Rigveda. It consists of a collection (samhita) of hymns, portions of hymns, and detached verses, all but 75 taken from the Sakala Sakha of the Rigveda, the other 75 belong to the Bashkala Sakha, to be sung, using specifically indicated melodies called Samagana, by Udgatra priests at sacrifices in which the juice of the Soma plant, clarified and mixed with milk and other ingredients, is offered in libation to various deities." Samaveda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@ DavidMcCann: The ideas in RigVeda and those in Epics and Puranas are quite different. One before assimilation, the other after assimilation.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Keeping in mind that there some Hindus who'll happily offer up beef and alcohol to the deities. Pretty out there Tantric-influenced folk Hinduism, but still.
Whatever may have happened in history, beef is absolutely out in modern Hinduism. Alcohol is not offered to Hindu deities except for Bhairava. Shiva is offered (Bhang, the marijuana drink). The Vedic tradition was to offer Soma, wish we knew what Soma was (although the hymn which my supposed progenitor wrote in association with other sages in RigVeda was in praise of Soma). That sure is a beautiful hymn if someone pays attention.

Loud neighs the Tawny Steed when started, settling deep in the wooden vessel while they cleanse him.
Led by the men he takes the milk for raiment: then shall he, through his powers, engender praise-songs.
As one who rows drives on his boat, he, Gold-hued, sends forth his voice, loosed on the path of Order.
As God, the secret names of Gods he utters, to be declared on sacred grass more widely.
Hastening onward like the waves of waters, our holy hymns are pressing nigh to Soma.
To him they come with lowly adoration, and, longing, enter him who longs to meet them.
They drain the stalk, the Steer who dwells on mountains, even as a Bull who decks him on the upland.
Hymns follow and attend him as he bellows: Trita bears Varuṇa aloft in ocean.
Sending thy voice out as Director, loosen the Invoker's thought, O Indu, as they cleanse thee.
While thou and Indra rule for our advantage, may we be masters of heroic vigour.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 9: HYMN XCV Soma Pavamana.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
D'oh! I forgot you did mention that. I'm thinking more of the "traditional" deities... Lakshmi, Hanuman, Krishna, Rama, Ganesha, Saraswati, et. al. and their preferences for offerings.
Except for Saraswati, the rest of deities are indigenous and not mentioned in RigVeda.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
So most of the everyday people wouldn't have fully acknowledged or participated in the "Vedic religion", but just the ritual and the worship of the Devas ?
That is right. Yajna (Havan) for people who may not be hand to mouth, at various auspicious times (naming a child, first tonsure, giving the sacred thread, marriage, start of a business; or for purifying the house (after a family death).
 

Kalibhakta

Jai Maha Kali Ma!
Indo-Paganism fascinates me, and I know one. They seem to be respectful and learned.

As everybody else has said here....

Really really hate the sex, drugs, rock and roll vampire goddess thing they do with Mother Kali. Makes me sick, the Christians I debate with over her are already scared enough of her as it is...
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I didn't know kava could get you blitzed. It's used as a sedative...

oh wait, wut? o_O

It depends on your umm reaction or rather your tolerance level. It's a sort of intoxicant, but it's more akin to a really really weak form of alcohol. So yes, if you drink enough you probably can get blitzed off it.

My grandfather used to make my dad drink it whenever we visited. Since he was retired and bored/frustrated that he couldn't work as hard as he used to. They'd drink for hours on end and end up just like happy drunks.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If that was the result, then it must be a nice drink (except for numbing of the lips). Did you ever try drinking it with a straw?
 

Kalibhakta

Jai Maha Kali Ma!
Hate sex! Who? Though I am not up to it now, but still I would not mind. Of course, not enamored of sex outside marriage. :)
Hahahahaha. That honestly made me laugh. :p "Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll" is a western saying talking about the decedent lifestyle of Hard Rockers.
 
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